Public Domain Re-writes Re-orchestrations Reconsiderations

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Here we are again!

"Hero’s Nation's Gain",
-- from a Scottish, one may call it a traditional, or folk song.

For me, -- an experimentation since never engage one like this. And, so it goes... ...

dzd's picture

I keep meaning to dig through some old public domain stuff, we talked about army cadences and such once, I think it was after you delved into those for a tune...........maybe a post here will remind me Biggrin

@dzd was that you. Wow, lots of water under that bridge.

-- You know how I remember that, flashbacking now, the only person in what 2500 or so, as purported? whom engaged it, and was not an ashehole Wink hahhh! So, that's quite a compliment if consider it well Smile

On that "genre" ----
There was not much that came up then, if you remember, -- which surprised me quite a bit.

(The other day that movie with charlie sheen came up, I posted that elsewhere... if you saw Smile ) ... w/chain gange, by Cooke, here again:

Looks like this may have been useful, and others --

This came up new... but, NOT vetted... so careful with any link, as not a recommend, but upon quick scan something that may help:

Oh my, this now came up, -- I guess other great minds like mine upped it in the search engines? -- an actual .mil PDF of them... but, again, for all I know it's from "china/moscow" and contain brainwashing elements from psychops folks ? Wink so, careful Smile

I'll leave it there then, say yes to yes and all that.

Here's the search used:

REMEMBER, -- most Cadences are NOT "PC" and if you are faint of heart [@Cody] and get the "vapers" easily or your head may explode if see ANYTHING of which you do not agree, do NOT read this stuff, ---- your head may explode and ruin all those nice guitars of yours Wink But, the Dog will have a nice snack.

-- So, you decide Smile

What is it that is said, "your mom does not work here... so, clean up after yourself"... Wink yee-puk'en-haww and amen!

-- Now you got me going... may "bang" one out Wink (I remember now, I was researching the Pub Dom of "Black Betty" and the original "words" of it, or likely just a hook, for a cadence. It seems as men do ? they name their "weapons" after women, so, -- from that Century of Origina (history lesson here), a "Blackpowder Rifle/weapon", called it a "Black Betty".

-- Tso, derUgo!! you have been updated!!

That song, or one of many rendersings:

Not a public domain rewrite but a new juxtaposition of lyrics and a different sort of drumming into the 18thC public domain (!) jig.. But I was trying to get the sound as traditional as I could!

@Tim Fatchen -- great work!

Glad to see that one.

I, someone should do a "Metal" version Smile hahhh. They could uber-dub your track and make it a collab!

- Pub Dom, Folk, Traditional, re-write, re-orchestration, "Cover"... personal interpretation... it's all good! I'm not big on "rules" or literal instruction Wink

Close enough works for me, esp if there's a standing ovation at the end of it Smile
(I should really keep my threads in the "Free for All" sections! hahhh!, keep all the Rules folks happy.)

dzd's picture

ah yeah I remember that movie version of that Sam Cooke tune well Smile

Had never seen that "Black Betty" video........that "dancing" was something to be marveled at indeed! Biggrin

So, @dzd - you are going to do a "cadence", or hook something or other of this kind?

Off the side of the topic. I dont use whole public domain songs or poetry but often i will look up a topic say Storm and pinch chunks from lots of poems or songs (lyrics mainly but sometimes music,)on the topic and use them as a base for a new song! At the very least i read a load of poetry, here more songs and that expands my thinking.

dzd's picture

@ustaknow thinking about it....probably a newer updated cadence of sorts, basically just snatching Cooke's idea @coolparadiso like that hahah Wink

@coolparadiso @dzd
- That is entirely "on" topic. I'm not an "expert" on anything, but have engaged allot of Pub Dom; for what that means, as a "do" thing and not a teaching to others thing.

I got into it for a number of reasons and then more so in recent years.

What got me a tad "fired up" was a well known fellow who's had a great past in "music" and had a few more things go "right" for which got picked up and licensed for, e.g., Streaming Series, theme music etc. Anyway, somehow it came up and I was like, hmmm, that sounds familiar. And sure enough, it was a simple "cover" of a pub dom piece. So what? Well, I'm not a rules guy by any stretch of imagination, but, it's always bothered me, (not that they have to!) but when someone especially of that level of "fame and fortune" does that and Copyrights it as they should, -- their version of it and etc. -- But, not "cite" it in any way; not even in a side-line interview, "wow, dude, great stuff you got there for that".... answ: "yeah, I get lucky sometimes I guess...". Yeah, lucky 'cause, "he" did it, not that it was "especially" good and etc. -- Gratitude.

So, what?

Well, I love to read and have gotten quite an "education" of the now, years. I like to cite "Cocain" and "Black Betty" here since there are those who are familiar with that and mine. When I researched "Cocain" to get back to the very first line and version... as a general goal if can, -- found what a wretched border, campfire song it was and had little resemblance to, e.g., Claptons version, but, -- there it was. Interesting! Aye? No? Well, then why did you read all this then? You, crazy or something? Smile

And, I had no idea about what a "Black Betty" was of any kind... and now when hear that rock version realise, if one formatted it with cadence structure, -- well, derItTis... a .mil cadence march ditty. Interesting! Aye? No? Well, then... Wink hahhh! (Ah, it's great to be me, -- laughing all day long.)

So, as well as my little brain has capacity to work, I try to cite if not comment that stuff.

But, essentially, if even, for example one used that one line from "Cocain" -- how many grew up thinking Clapton was "brilliant"? Wink Authored that? Or, like "Hey Joe"... -- figured the guy singing it, wrote it? Or when I met the band and asked, so, "which one of you is Floyd?" Smile hahhh!

Anyway, anyway, anyway ... public domain, -- it's good stuff and if not carefull will pull one into allot of reading about "Period" times and origins of things. However, for "me", -- that provides context and writeability flow for if used it or not.

On another Note, at one time if even a few years ago now... one could do well with a bag full of 150 year old "Hymns", redone. I think Ray Charles did some of that and got wacked for it. But, there were a chunk of "Hymns" based upon old time drinkng pub, drinking songs, -- since already "knew" them Wink hahhh... less of a learning curve to replace words.

So, derUgo!

The reality for me now is little is really different And new. I almost never get silver bullets or truckloads of good stuff! I have to dive deep to get my little gems. I wade through lots of flowery historical ordinary writings in poems just to find little gems. But hey they are still little gems! And worth the effort.

dzd's picture

all interesting stuff to me too ........... I don't think anyone will ever know where the Cocaine blues/penitentiary blues/little sadie/old jack brown.........any of the many titles it's been "copyrighted" a duck a duck no matter by what name, or however that goes Wink

This is oldest recorded version I believe has been tracked down to1928 Buddy Baker.......

can't handle true "lo-fi" stay away Smile just a warning

but since has been done/differently titled by a lot........I think the man in black will receive royalties now, I mean he was the most popular one to do it hahah.....but that's for someone else to worry their minds about other than me.....hahah IMO should be a free game song, just always cited as here's this thing I heard once from some fella......or whatever

This 50 90 did a version of lavenders blue (nursery song), humoresque instrumental by Dvorak (and stole a few lines of a lyrics then goin off on my own tracks) and possibly a few others. I liked a comment above.. I never nodded to anyone befor e a few years ago.. but I am now open to the whole concept of folk being a delightful continuum of elements being retained, and others being discarded, whilst still enabling a kind of mining of culture which can be quite profound, can enable others to relate to your stuff, and can also really open up opportunites to play with xpectations (that wouldn't be there if you were writign soething completely new) so Im enjoying the fusion sometimes between origiinal and influence..

Loosely based on "a you're adorable:
Based on Dvorak Humoresque/ and Passengers will please refrain...
Based on The Wheels on the Bus (public domain? )
Based on kids song See the little bunnies (just a possible new verse)
Based on Lavender's Blue

Ok .. I will start writing some more original stuff. Just getting started!!

dzd's picture

@tunecat just by doing, aren't you giving a nod to all those that came before? that whole nothing new under the sun thing comes to mind Biggrin

Would be impossible to cite ALL influences or sparks of ideas that may happen, as most the time personally I'm unaware until maybe years/days/never... later, unless it was something purposefully done, then yeah cite away, or that's just blatant thievery, especially if it's look at this new thing I just did Biggrin

Another not-a-public-domain-rewrite-but-use-of-an-18thC-tune which no-one is quite certain of its provenance. Tune nicked in the early 19thC for a broadsheet and in the late 19thC-early 20thC by Tommy Armstrong of Tyneside, whose lyric sparked me into another kind of cage fight. Be warned, although instrumentation is similar to the other one, this is a feast-level without all that careful craftsmanship!

Hahh @dzd -- great find! Hahhh. If you read the lyrics, -- it's wretched... and "described/summarised" in some archives, -- as a fellow who went with a "whore", blew her away, crazy on Cocain, (not just alcohol), now in a cross the border jail, (not US Smile ) so, drink all you like, but don't do that "cocain" -- makes you bat-scheit crazy!

Anyway, -- I think a few Smile hahhh!, "folk, trail song", lyrics got munged.

But I hear that, ---- the most entertaining cowboy circa 1800 got more beans and extra blanket if not another pull from the jug, if well liked (no Cable TV then, or Internet), Wink so, -- as foul as one could be on the old cowboy trail Wink was a good thing to be entertaining with.

I think "PC" back then meant, "please continue" Wink Smile

@tunecat -- I'll have a listen when have more time to be able to properly engage it.

Yes, what you say is a great observation, in that, -- "covers", can be a good thing, if then make them your own. I never did covers (hard for some to believe, possibly), well, in the context most mean it (to large a conversation for a simple thread like this). However, as I see others really engage them in more of our present period, recent past, if "make it their own" version and not "Karaoke" it, ("tribute band it"?), -- it's a great way to build a "Set", it seems.

As in another conversation elsewhere... I brought up some "Tom Waits" stuff, his "demos" that are online prior to a producer getting their hands on them. "Anyone" from "here", could have "done" them, -- so to speak in how they sound and as good, or not?, as one may deem them. If I did/do them as one can track them down an listen to 1v1g one-takes, -- would they even know I was "Covering" a song? Smile Smile Smile hahhh! Uno!?

(Just doing another of my own songs... -- in my region, no, they don't know "Tom Waits").

Ah, anyway, -- if it's fun, it's good, and then good for music.

[@Tim Fatchen's] -- another good one! Smile (Others too as had the time to scan.)

dzd's picture

@ustaknow yeah Johnny Cash's was pretty true to that recording, have heard Hank III do it really nice justice as well even if the band appears to not be practicing what they preach hahahaha, I think that bass player might of went backstage and sniffed his full name in cursive hahahah..... I might of linked you some of this show before, you'll probably get a kick out of it even if no one else does Biggrin .....what I find interesting is as much music history as he surely knows, he even cites this as a Johnny Cash tune.

@dzd ... oh my, that's just so not PC Wink hahhh! I love it. That's me in the front row, shooting my Colt 45 -- beer Smile yee-haww.

-- "I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy"... "the deputy was me..., so I shot that old bastard down, down to the ground, I shot'er"

(Mixed a little Hey Joe in that for good measure!)

No, that old bootlegger, died in extended care... -- I kept track Smile

dzd's picture

@ustaknow yeah those are other great ones.....sheriff shooting and old joe shootin his woman......... hey joe lost to history as far as I know, any original recordings by original writer

and how many, even though Bob Marley is very well known, people love to cite him even if never really "listened" to his stuff hahaha..... even know that Clapton didn't write that one either? Even if he never claimed to, and many blues musicians thank him for if not Clapton and Creme citing them, how much of their work would of gone unheard/unnoticed in the annals of time.

Unlike "The self-proclaimed King" and listen here to this new little sound I came up with and this funky new style a dancin.........and no it wasn't a young Forest Gump hahah

@dzd -- I think I understand what you are saying about citing something.

However, if you or I do, or like that as discussed, (me, I will) - that may be understandable. If one is at a Robert Plant level of experience in all things this stuff, for me, well, it makes me feel like he's not doing something that he easily could. Hey, unless he's got some killer-attorney who says acknowledge no one for any reason in any manner and usually ties back to money and/or 10K maniacs filing a CR suit. Hey, it is never good to judge anyone, since we never know, anything, really, -- about the other person and what's going on.

Maybe there is some issue to it since, I could compile a list, (of pub dom, non-citing), Plant, Nelson... etc.

Maybe I'm naive to think otherwise, -- could be Smile

However, as became a discussion in a past project, the iko iko NOLA song:

Good luck to anyone suing for CR rights Wink ... at the point that everyone tries to claim a Pub Dom as "theirs", and everyone owns it, -- prima facie, is public domain, -- hahhh! That was an interesting research back for MY, then, version of it. And yes, it came up, "Pub Dom" ? -- well if you have a few hours to read about it, then one can have their opinion. Version it and enjoy the court time, -- will only happen if you ever make significant money... so, not cold sweats here. (And, I say they "tonue in cheek". Look for a CR or citation on that video, -- a random good hit example. Just version it.

-- Do an exact cover of an exact versioned re-write..., well, that is the point. Unless you are sure that version IS fully pub dom... exhausting, aye!)

@dzd I see uRbzZee..., nonetheless, no Cadence?

I would quote Bono (a.k.a. The Fly) in regards to this:

"Every artist is a gambler
Every poet is a thief
All steal their inspiration
And sing about the grief"

Still one of my favourite U2 songs…

We can't help but steal things from songs/poems/films/books/&c… we've heard/read/watched/&c… That's pretty much how inspiration works. We see/hear/read something, it sparks an idea in us. Our Muse shouts: "Gods of creativity! This is what we gotta do!" Then we create.

A favourite pastime of mine (& a fun writing/composing technique) is to reverse famous melodies. There's some great open source MIDI programs that will reverse the order of MIDI data from a file. Take a MIDI file of some melody (even one of your own), reverse it, dump it into your preferred DAW & you've got a fresh new melody to compose from. The new melody may hint at the original, but in most cases it sounds completely different. I've done this with old Irish folk tunes & other public domain melodies. It's lots of fun to see what happens to a melodic line when it gets reversed. Give it a try sometime, you might be pleasantly surprised at the results.

See You In The Shadows…

dzd's picture

@ustaknow nothing yet Wink actually have a working bed track of tons of industrial(power tool collection) noise samples inspired by some other thread here, that got me remembering that chrome plating factory haha....will probably be a working man or woman type of cadence, has cracked me up since I was 16/17 how it's always the so called "hard men" that do all the bitching in a shitty factory job.....the women tend to be the ones to not say a word and just do the work...... no need to overdo/overthink that one lyric-wise Wink .....we'll see if it ever gets finished, need to redo a few of the samples and try to give some melody to the nonsense :D.....I so just wish I would of caught first recording that inspired the idea to even try and recreate it.....leaf blower going outside while listening to the "ghost noise" and a 15hz to 20khz 2ish minute single note'll get done eventually, bit on the back burner for anything that may show up 50/90 or at least not for a few weeks....

That is a great Bono quote @Candle Wink

and usta you're probably right about him being advised against any citing........especially in that day, I mean who is ever going to have easy access to most things recorded at their fingertips ever? hahahah fkin lawyers........

dzd's picture

nowhere nearly finished, but good enough for my 50/90, and not a cadence, unless you count funeral dirge's as cadences? Wink

That's a great track @dzd!

Here's one I did a few years ago (FAWM 2014) that appears on my album Vibrations (of the same year):

Cær Sidi

It's a traditional Welsh/British round that I reversed (as explained in the post above). I'm still quite proud of it.

See You In The Shadows…

@Candle - that link, for me, does not work. I can't search and find it on my own on BC.

Here's a link to the album. It's track # 7 : Caer Sidi.

See You In The Shadows…

dzd's picture

Really enjoyed that too @Candle the twangy instruments paying homage to the original, with just enough of your own quirk! really enjoyable listen, turned out really nice.......especially that deep deep rumble choir of strings and did I hear a flute? hahah....right on the verge of wanting to overload my headphones I bet that's amazing with a really nice stereo setup, really excellent! that bass would of rumbled my house instead of just my bones Wink

@Candle -- made me want to dig out my Erhu! Smile ..., and then run it through a marshall, hahhh!

@ustaknow Lol I think that's an instinct of western musicians: "just run it through the marshall stack" Lol

@dzd Glad you enjoyed it. Yeah, I'm sure it would sound awesome on a good stereo, quad or surround setup (though it's only mixed in stereo).

See You In The Shadows…

This one uses a public domain song in the chorus. My lyrics need a little work, but I think I can use this one with some more tweaking and maybe a different vocalist.

dzd's picture

This one started in fawm this year........done enough for now Smile

Twinkle Twinkle rework of sorts

Great work on that "Twinkle" rework... for me, - I'd keep going, put it all together if not burnt out on it. To me, it sounds like you gave it a good bit of attention Smile well, as Five-minute Writes go Wink hahhh!

dzd's picture

@ustaknow thanks hahaha, yeah it'll probably be a month or two, at first I hated it because it came across actually kind of sweet, I don't mind sweet songs, just don't like writing them hahah....but its growing on me Smile Still keep kicking around cadence ideas, but probably not a wise decision considering the "climate" of things, hmmm a chosen through lots of inner self struggles pacifist that you do not want to piss off cadence could be interesting haha

@dzd re: "not want to piss off cadence"

Is that even possible?

Actually a wonderful Song Challenge, really.

Consider current "facts" Smile

We now have folks building back the economy by braving "out" and eating outside food, "outside", -- to provide livings for *others, and they're being,

- Choked

- Robbed

- Threatened

- Assaulted w/Battery

- Violent fighting words and profanity

- One woman was literally choked (long term injury?), as she tried to swallow a bite of food while others watched, and some attempted to assist

- other?

I'm waiting for a e.g., 95 lb woman like my Mom, (Lord Bless her!), -- to pull out her 357 in fear of her life and risk of bodily injury and "respond". Oh, and, she never just "pulled", -- it was one fluid action, complete Wink like my training and as I trained others, or remained put away. Well, different times, different times...

So, anyway, if going out to eat and assist others is pissing some folks off... -- what would a song like that look like, "to not piss others off"?

I think... now, I could be wrong..., but I think it has to have a video with it where you blow your own brains out and leave a "first grabs" WILL? If that can exist. You know, remember like the one the Comedian did when she cut President Trumps Head off, -- in a very realistic manner (well enough for Barron to run to Mom when saw his Dad's head in that womans hand like that). Since that's the new acceptable standard for "these times", well, derUgo! We'll call it KMTV, Kill MTV Smile ("MTV" is already dead, but, you know, be green and recycle the letters to new meaning.)

What would the world look like if WE ALL DID THAT? Especially all the Blue Smurf types?

-- Actually, I DID write a song about that and think it was last 5090 [?], titled something like, can't remember presently, "Old White Men... what do we do with you", etc. (What did that one woman say, castrate them and throw them to the pigs?... or some acceptable lefty thing to say and not be considered hatred in todays times/standard.) Anyway, my song..., -- it was highly acclaimed Wink so, you may want to consider it and see what kinda lightening strikes in the moment Smile (I love a good thunderstorm, like you Flatlanders in OK have!)

Ah yes that's it's title, BandCamp, you can search for you own song! Smile hahhh! (I need to, so many!):

It's a gud'un... tell all yah friends Wink (you know, b4 all the fame and fortune! Wink )

Ah, @dzd borrowing from your new story, -- alwasys a GREAT source, inspiration... -- we can co-write and you perform, or get your buddy involved Smile hahahahah:

Oklahoma NADz (Native American Dance...?) -- you know, a good cadence needs to be edgy...

So, you should write a cadence about a man who (and lead up in spoken word...)

This is a story, and it's not gory
about a man, had a good job
but he left, he left right left

Now, this man was Right, if not quite right,
in all that he took up his fight,
and then one day, to his dismay,
hugged the thin thin blue,
thin blue line, and he wept...,

And he wept,
wept right, wept right
left... [drum beats... musications]

now he didn't weep wet, and no dis - credit,
but the cop he did hug, he got quite bugged...
and haul his ass away..., away...,
away right way right, away...,

His last problem was,
what to do with this fuzz
from the war bonnet
he really did care... ... ...

So, just a thought, (that above), -litterally wrote that in flow of thought just now in this..., so, you get what get, left right get... ... ..., - and if even you don't care too, (engage htis), -- as always notta problem; and, well, you know me Smile later in the week if have more time may develop it. Who knows... The fact that it is based on recent real life makes it fun. (If I understand the story; and not important, entirely, as a cadence, details are not important, -- if you read some of them, they're "silly", stupid, and, etc., hahhh, at the least... I may have over thought that one there above... ).

(Well, again, just a thought, Smile ) hahhh... early morning packing w/o coffee... well, I am fun to be around first five minutes of the day! Hahhh!

I'm sitting here in the middle of no-where appalach able to get an inet connect with my cell phone which (connected, oh my... can't be to far out)... anyway, did a quick skim read again of this and finally saw tunecats stuff... all great work. The Pub Dom "crowd" is the "coolest" I think... Wink and one of the few reasons I'd come to the forums. Great work this project!, all.

Like I commented to tc's stuff above, like "wheels go round the bus" tune... folks are gonna hear "that" and instantly know what you did, admire it and get drawn in. And then you can hit them with a 1+1 original and get a good/better reaction since they just started to like/admire you for the familiarity first.

I think if you have a "gravity feed mind, ball joint jaw, and silver tongue" that's the entertainment part too.

You're so pretty
You're so fine
You're just like
Fine red wine

Just squirted out now in flow of thought. But if someone liked you're stuff to engage you in converstaion (my fav thing), -- you can then and there, write them a song... well some will "get that" and some will be like "WTF" ? is he talking about. Wink That's okay, not for you then, and -- why reading this? then? Smile

But anyway, -- I never met anyone who didn't like, in the moment, -- have a song wrote about them or similar. Hahhh! Last night I was asked why I had never visited (yet) the country from where my wife is from... (musicians mind?), because, "the moment I saw her, I saw all I needed of that beautiful country, and took her home"... (yes, to good effect in many ways Smile ), wise guy and blushing wife. -- Thing is, authentically mean it... important in music it seems for a good connection.

So, well, I am only haif way through my first coffee and it's "instant powder", -- could not bring my Stainless Steel French Press and Coffee Bean Geared Grinder... so... not have the same effect... and probably why the quality of this post has been degraded... instant coffee strikes again!!

So, mr. cody @dzd , what happened to the filthy Cadence you promised us all. Make it political too and be sure to get listened to Wink hahhh! Fool or, just okee artful, as you like!! maybe a 1+1 with that fancy Ehbanyez gat you got.

@dzd - this should go in the demo updated thread... but, nontheless, I'm sure it will chart in Nepal Smile Yetti-radio:

dzd's picture

@ustaknow hahaha promises promises Biggrin maybe for fawm

@dzd - remember... if you equally offend everyone, it's then, PC... so, don't leave anyone out! (re: Cadence... )

And yeah, looking forward to more Yetti-radio... (Another good band name hahhh!!! oh my... "Anasazi"...)

Hey, that latest revision... not up on a re-write post, since pub dom:

( here's a random "other version", too, random hit on YT... hahhh just for fun: )