Positive Feedback Loop

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I know that 50/90 is about the song and not about the demo or the tech, but I have learned so much about recording because of this community. I'm wondering if it's okay to have a thread specifically for demo recording feedback? I imagine that participants could give a little info about what they used to record and what, if anything, they want feedback on. For example "Here's a song I recorded on audacity. How can I make the vocals pop a little more?" Or "here's something I did using Garage Band. Should I add more software instruments or leave it as is?" I would ask that people limit themselves to one or two songs and that if you post something to this thread you do the best you can to listen to and comment on songs posted here throughout the challenge. That way the person who posts in September isn't commenting on everyone else's stuff but getting no love back.

Does this sound like something people would be interested in? And if this has been an established thing that I've missed, then I apologize. I'm not trying to step on anyone else's thing.

I think it's a great idea.

The things I've noticed, typically that then possibly become elements to reconsider more deeply is, (and anyone who knows me, has heard this), - a question about "Recording" is asked, and a "Mixing" answer is the response.

So, what I then see, is, - 3, 4, 5 years later, here?, folks ask the same questions, again, and again, and then get the same answers. ? (generally speaking and in this context of all erased and renewed each year, so, - NOT a "bad" thing, so no misunderstanding should occur as "negative", - not).

- So, I've even "challenged" on rare occassion using, e.g., Audacity to then "teach" the simple task ? of recording a basic 1+1 and "even" ? that, was misunderstood... and as a "CHALLENGE"... - no, it wasn't. - An idea concerning pedagogy, andragogy paradigm via Audacity and the 1+1 context (more simply stated then? no trigger word, e.g., "challenge" which then resulted in Platform Comparision and use, - no, not ME Fool never; I don't care and have at one time or another, used "all" of them? hahhh, so to speak, - tape splicing anyone?).

So, in that context, if folks that then engage this, they can be better served, -all actually, as I've observed.

Otherwise, to get the best opinion of the best plug'in's et alia to then enhance a track that was RECORD, ENHANCED, therefore enhancing the already enhanced track, that was never properly ? "Recorded", - DRY, then enhance, then mixed.

Or something like that Wink Smile hahhh. - I see weeds popping up as I write, so, one "gets" that or not, and then, as always, - just ignore me Smile always, fine to do.

PS: I fully realize that many read what I write and don't understand it, so go with what they understand. I deal with this all the time, in R&D of new tech, et alia... indeed, it did not exist, now does, so, understand what? So, sometimes, the very thing, one does not get or agree with, may be the "new" thing they do not know, which is what they seek. Yet, be going with what they already understand and always provided by a "cool-kid" too Wink ... they do not progress, (I am happily, not, ? , a "cool-kid" Wink well, how I see it in my little world Smile ).
- I see this, even among "teachers" of status quo, context, ism's... so to speak. So, the "challenge" is, to not only seek the feedback loop, but to engage the pain and discomfort of it. After all, ? the "struggle", is the learning process since "i" don't actually teach anyone anything, versus facilitate the context, of "it". ? - journey-person style... Eh, again, weeds popping up all over the place now!! Fool

Yeah, that's a great idea!
A central thread for specific advice.
As @ustaknow said, though, this kind of thread seems to inevitably and unfortunately go off the rails at some point.

I don't remember if there is routinely a "recording tech and methods" thread, but I absolutely agree that production can change the entire feel of a song and is well worth discussion for those who are interested in that side of things. I strongly question whether I have any useful advise to impart myself -- I'm very much muddling through each time -- but would certainly participate to the extent I might actually have something useful to say.

I'd be interested. Again, not sure how much I can offer, but it sounds fun. Smile

I would be interested, but I might be tempted to go full on recording geek on people. So if we do it, I'll try to rein myself in.

I'd like to be able to give simple, helpful, advice.

But I hang out on messageboard.tapeop.com and gearspace.com quite a bit. And those are not good examples of simple/helpful.

Yes. I will comment/compliment in normal song comments if a production is superb (as happens occasionally) but normally I wouldn't utter a word. But a specific thread specifically asking for response on production? Yes, that would be good and usefuland it probably will go off the rails because sh!t happens and ears differ and opinions opinionate.. But at least it will go off the rails in its own canyon and not be a WMD through other forum threads!

I would love this. I generally lack the patience to do proper production, but every once in a while I hear a really great recording that hammers home that there are little things I could be doing that would make a huge difference.

A suggestion?

- And, one, when this stuff started to be discussed a few years back got the response Smile "I don't have the time for that", - and pretty much set the mood; so, that was "it" for me. And, yes, same folks now, likely..., so, we'll see, sea?, cee? Well, what will be will bee.

So, and kind of regardless of if here to help, or be helped but then ask for feedback, typically, about "issues", - what else?...,

- ~ - What, your signal chain, - is, be, am, are (?) - ~ -

What's that mean? Well, to me it means, e.g.,
Cell phone pic of this, e.g., SM57 on the boom stand to the Mixer (and if has features and red lights - I say for good reason, - Note that, e.g. Yamaha MG10) to the USB Interface (note what it is and how your knobs are set) to your Laptop (?) and if Apple, Windows, Linux..., DOS 3.0... etc., to your DAW, e.g. SuperFantastic 10.0.9.8.0.0.1 version... and if Recorded Dry, or via some superkalafragalistic plug in, or applied one and blew aways the Dry track.

And, here's a preliminary answer to, "I have distortion in my track, but, record at 12dB" Smile
- yes, indeed, however in that Signal Chain you documented,
- see any "red" lights going off prior to the DAW?
- how much compression was applied? (compression on the Mixer too?)
- how many time, if did, was that track dup'd

So, why comment that?, - well, it's something that comes up. And, many record close to 0dB and Compress to hotdog shape tracks and have dup'd the tracks 2-4 times (multiplies it) AND, don't watch the little red-lights prior to the DAW. Those little triangle < thing'y's are "nominal" points to watch and know your equipment. So, if again, have 10 Pedals prior to the Mixer and using a "hot" pickup on the old elec guitar... you may only have to back your Guitar Vol to .5 and even roll off the Tone knob by 25-30% and etc. (I don't loose much on my "hot" pups, and as far as the Tone knob, string finger noise, not much else, YOUR's may be, is likely different), the rest, - in the then "mix" (?) .
- However, again, if you've got 10 pedals in our dry track, sorry, that's Kenmore Hoover Vac General Electric Vega-matic MIXED already already Smile (And, likely another thread concerning medicated guitar players Fool hahhh... one burbon, one shot, and one beer via blunt... ) - kidding, kidding, kidding. (But you know whom you are Smile )

I tend to steer clear of threads about recording and gear. But I do care about both - I just think of what I do and have as very unique to me and my quirks.
I can get a pretty decent recording of a guitar/vocal track - I know how far to sit from my mic, and away I go. Record, upload, post, on to the next song.
I do OK with ukulele/vocal as well, but on ukulele instrumentals you can sometimes hear my breathing. I could fix that pretty easily on my own, I suppose, if I wanted to.
I spend a fair amount of trial/error time recording my assortment of other instruments - banjo, mandolin, cookie-tin slide guitar, tongue drum, harmonium.
My point here? Yes, I'd like to learn (and share what I know) about how to record such instruments into the condenser mic I use.

@ustaknow I think I get what you and others are saying about things going off the rails now. I hadn't thought about that. We're all operating at very different points in the path, just like with song writing in general and that can make it difficult to communicate in an effective way. For instance, if someone has been doing this for years, has read books and articles on recording, and really knows their equipment asks a question, a beginner won't be able to offer much. Conversely, I think the opposite can be true too, to a lesser degree. Someone who is brand new to recording can be hit with information overload... all excellent information... but too much to process at once. That can cause people to get frustrated and think that this isn't for them. I can see where this becomes a problem.

The trouble is that this is a problem we have with any constructive criticism here at 50/90. Everyone is at a different point in the path. Ultimately that leads to people giving praise and encouragement, but very little constructive criticism. That's not a complaint. That's the culture at 50/90 and there are reasons for it and I'm not looking to change it (though I will still welcome constructive criticism on my music). Maybe I'll just continue to learn by lurking in the shadows of the demo threads and allow others to do the same.

dzd's picture
Donatedwinnerdzd

@katpiercemusic It's a good idea for a thread, but you're bound to get 5 diffrerent answers that would all achieve the same result. Which inevitably lead to bickering over who is more "right" at least in most places...............and none of those may be the solution you were looking for or even achieve the sound you were trying to get Biggrin

like @ustaknow said as well these discussions almost always head towards mixing as well. Which is understandable considering how few instruments/amps actually get mic'd in the wider world of music anymore and not just done with a VST/software amps/etc, but there is a wealth of knowledge on this site. I think more people here do actual live recording than in most working studios anymore, and a lot of mic type/placement and setting volume levels for different situations knowledge is going away.

@katpiercemusic Smile ahhhhh, don't conflate the others, possible negative injection with me Smile I fully support your idea and otherwise would not have commented anything, - at all.

Rather than "explain" Smile hahhh, if you consider now in that light, - it may "read" differently.

I've, for anyone who's gotten to know me knows..., never separated atta-boys and encouragement from comment-feedback as exclusive.

I've seen over many years in various contexts folks authentically engage in support, and others with an agenda who are greatly skilled are redirecting to their agenda, versus, - "what's good for that, each a special case, one-off, person". "Here", I've seen a little of the agenda stuff, but, it does not last long, self-purges.

Then there's the well informed, misinformed and then, with no malice of any kind wrapped in agenda, - as all human beings do, -do, all of us.

So, if one follows a method, or protocol that just skips by that unintended misinformation, as has happened with my commented stuff if read it and may have seen it at the time..., misunderstood for other than it was. - So nice to explain, but becomes muddy quickly so, won't.

So, what I inject is to not get knee jerk suggestions of opinion and from the various places as you say folks are. THEY can't control that, giving or receiving, - misunderstandings. However, the thread can self-moderate with the "protocols", - if developed and used.

And, if folks then, "don't have time for that" ? well, that's okay. They then find the time repeating mistakes for the next 2, 3, 4 years..., and engaged in several other help-boards of (same level?, mindset?) folks...; now, to me that's a waste of time, when all they had to do was, e.g., document their signal chain (5 mins to cell phone, pic; 5 more to upload; 5 more to error check, - 15 mins?). Also, as with my Audacity suggestion for basic 1+1..., not a challenge, versus as stated, - had it been repeated back to me, other someone else (as a protocol, for clarity of understanding ? )..., and remained focused, - it may have benefited folks whom still, remain, - confused, as to how to 1+1 a simple 1 mic, 1 guitar, song draft.
-- Again, it's not first spending $5000 on equipment, and loading allot of software, spending a year, (actually several years, since a year is 365 days... so takes many years to "spend a year" Smile on learning software).

On one thread, now deleted, I commented on an individuals "love language" if you saw that? It was actually intended as analogy as one or two understood. So, one has to understand that, they may get "constructive criticism" as you say, but only once, maybe and never again. Why? It's a good thing to think on.

Is it easy to provide comment-feedback? For some yes. For most, - no (?), not if you really want to be "liked", "loved" and get many "love" comments back. - You know? Smile

How many times folks have krapped on this topic, attempted to chase folks away that engage it, redirect to their agenda for their use, "here", -- which is moot since there are not "rules", other than doing no harm (misinformation?) and just getting better at songwriting.

I've injected a number of analogies over the years, like, "Relationships". Well, it's very easy to just go to "mom" and get feedback and that's that. It's easy to bring up a great idea, again... Smile but then, dump it? Very easy. Smile It's not easy having folks take krappe shots at you, and have them understand, they'll get worn down long before me... and so, here, we all are Wink Fool -- ANYWAY. We could have just skipped over all the minutia (of several years), of status quo -isms and just progressed that much more 2, 3, 4 years back, so to speak, all things considered, well Smile

So, what's all that mean? Well, I'm not the teacher here, nor curriculum developer, or process engineer Smile ... but, one idea would be to, (since your thread), engage the blank slate of "curriculum" here.

- Do you want folks, giving/getting help to detail their signal chain? How? Why?
- Do you want folks, to repeat back what they just heard, or interpreted (esp. ESL folks, or other extreme's in personality, like the very negative/way-to-happy folks; way to drunk-stoned folks, etc. Smile ... hold on while I finish this roach... ... ... okay, I'm back... wait, "get more bullet rye today..., okay, I'm back Smile ) so, again, so, ---- what they *heard, IS what you SAID?
- Would more old fashion, understanding of Internet, Bi-directional, Asynchronous communication be a good emphasis? (like I am doing now... with you... not just taking your last statement of "oh, we'll just not do this" or similar Smile and then, done? Why not extend the conversation and be sure, to kill the thread for the right reasons, if, do, do, that Smile ).

Hahhh, I remember being in a large group of educators with many years of "in class" (FtF), experience forced to learn how to "internet teach"... and one of the biggest challenges was this asynchronous element on both sides; to many examples of disasters, so I won't try.

So, as far as the "off the rails" thing, - I only saw that once (?) above, and, since that person is/may be (?) more of a "Deductive Communicator" and you may be more of an "Inductive Communicator", - could be "classic" asynchronus miscommunication, -- quite *innocent and unintentional and yet, -- leads to long term sideways feelings, miscommunications, re-directions, thread-killings :), ---- that just don't need to happen.

(Some folks, again, do it *intentionally, stir up krappe sit back and watch, even here, they are Trolls, (who knows who'll join us Smile ); and, they do exist here, and back theirselves up with SockPuppets even, OMG... Smile hahhh... - they used to "teach" that long ago, how *not to get sucked in; not anymore it seems. I remember reading in a thread a comment here one year, to do it, and the sight owner here, said, "sure, and I'll lock the thread...", it wasn't really funny, though I suspect intended as humor, - outlined the strategy, timing, method even..., they're still around; wow huhhh... how many even caught that, that time).

So, that "bait" needs to be ignored if occurs as that can go with "Tech" and "Opinion" and more easily, diplomatically, kindly done with "protocols", as commented. It also gives the teacher/learner a method of outcome expectation, retracing of steps to review on their own, contemplate and sans the opinion versus bullet point steps that may be easily amended or discussed in back channels, experiments, further demos, AB-testing of method, to Outcome collations.

Again, if soliciting the "best" Reverb plug-in, - no thanks Smile
------ , if soliciting, this is what I did, wanted, hear... what do you (... ... ?) and etc. or however anyone may want to engage their "love language"; tech speak, songwriting.

All, I can really close with is, "how to do better songs", -- no one in other analogies of betterment says, "to learn how to drive better, in your Prius, -- get a Formula Race Car and and just keep going at 200 mph for hours, -- that'll help allot, don't worry about the time, money or damage" Smile ..., cool-kids, what can you do with them Fool The more equipment you use to get your sound, the more NO ONE can help you.

However, if you use,
1-sm57 mic
1-mic'd (not plugged in, mic'd, for a reason) acoustic guitar
1-stripped down, simple, yet fully enabled DAW like Audacity

Where you can Render a Stereo in Track to 1 single mono Vocal and 1 single mono Guitar, then form a dry track Stereo Demo, then, when you "do something" to that dry, 1 sound source track, - then EVERYONE can help you. Heck, they'll take that track and plug it in for you and slice and dice and vegamatic it six ways from Sunday.

And, you don't need "reverb" to get "reverb" or even echo. And, if you learn how to that that yourself, manually, you'll then better understand your plug'in's if use them, or "software" Features, like echo, reverb, hi-pass filters, EQ (EQ... ahh... yes the ultimate non-plugin).

And, keep in mind, every "producer" has their own style and ear (good/bad? who knows for a new one for every band it seems). And, Live Venue Recording is NOT "Record" making recording, the other elephant in the room. You can make a "Record" -ing, you could never ever perform live Smile ask Taylor Swift who has 6 versions (?) of every song, - stadium, small venue, 1+1... etc.

Hahhh, I was writing then @dzd came... - so written prior to that post.

I'll stick to only giving constructive criticism to people in this thread. Seems prudent.

Guilty as charged, @ustaknow. Sad

@Fuzzy hahhh, "guilty", indeed. Fool (of what, which..., ..., - lots there to be guilty of..., hmmm...)

I worked in a context that, as e.g., I'd send out a granular (supposed to be) technical analysis of UDP/IP protocol for Mobitex Network code to the engineers engaged in developing that platform and all the nG's that are out now... 3G, 4G, 5G..., ..., 100G ? (kidding, kidding...) and the top half (of the message, report, text content had to be split and formed as follows), -- it could not be more than 5 lines, Inductively speaking. They would completely loose their scheit, otherwise and my email and office would be filled with hate concerning wTf I was talking about. (Oh, and "trolls" [?], yes, indeed, Corprate America, is full of them and FtF!! O M G Wink you have never met more brutal folks than that. But, eh, it's a living, and I'm still standing Smile and, not taken on their traits... ) Anyway..., and then, the infamous:
"...

==================================================================================
==================================================================================
..."

Line.

Where the Inductive, fully granular explanation with add-den-dums/dooms (?), links, flowwwwwwed. Otherwise:
"...my email and office would be filled with hate concerning wTf I was talking about...."

And, PS, THAT made some folks unhappy. Since well, they found it hard to be UNHAPPY about something, anything..., and not concerning me. Oh, they lived to have something, anything to be unhappy about, concerning me. Like here? Fool Do, let me know Wink

However, in all seriousness, understanding how, how..., how, to communicate, and receive your "love" language, well, could it really hurt. Well, actually, it feels better if hurts, just a little, it seems Smile

Oh, and, while I engage "that", - how do you know, inductively speaking, it was you? One thing I learned a long time ago, especially online, - I can't read minds.

And so, -- all I wrote above -- , "Protocols"; they, kindly manage the "science" of the comment, while eliminating the personality offense, since only, or more of the raw "data" is supplied to react/interact with and NOT the personality, or opinion which may be correct/not. -- The point.
(I may have to splain that one more time, 3x's already?... +-, -- since statistically speaking, it takes 4x's for "it" to be seen, heard, considered in any meeting of humans engaging in varying states of mind in 20 min chunks of information, - fyi Smile )

Any sight owners with decades of experience relating to any of this. (No, no ? mark, - rhetorical Smile )

And, away we go...

Okay, enough... and per the other threads, though this is as e.g., practice, "how-to", not-to, etc-ism:

So, for example:
- The I wrote Monday 03 May 2021 (MAY) and spent, maybe an hour, accumulated, on it, as I do, do, as folks that follow me know, - how I spend my Lunch time and etc. and "wait for work" times... - keeps me from drinking and smoking to much Wink randomly picked as first identified as not FAWM Smile and not "pre-5090", just wrote and stuck there so other friends could scheit all over it and etc. Smile )

ustaknow.bandcamp.com/track/no-bad-blood

So, as e.g. as the OP meant, but now, since said, now dropped this good idea? -- and maybe one you then see "here" during 5090, again, as example for THEN..., since, well as I said above (and if draw a blank July 01, go with it to get "it" all started)..., so,

1) wTf is wrong with this demo?
2) WtF is "right" (if anything) with this demo?

And, when folks I know comment, (e.g., "Relationship"), "sounds gud like it" - I know what that means; otherwise, would need splaining of some kind. And, if it makes you want to rip your ears off and run from your Audio Equipment, - well, I understand, and say so. No, that does not mean it's "bad", it just means you like other stuff. I no longer have feelings anyone can hurt, I been on-line more than 26 years, pre-browser, wars, daze Smile so, do as you like Smile

*HOWEVER, it seems to me in my experience, most folks that do not "like" something, simply say *nothing. So, anything that's communicated, is LIKELY meant as to be helpful.
- And that's where the inductive/deductive communication, extended communication skills most adults do have IRL and use can use here.
-- So, to speak, arguably, and if get what I mean Smile

And, feel free to comment or not, but, maybe not "here" yet, - soundboard, if at all. I can't read minds Wink and realize only 1-5 people may even understand what the hello I a saying, - as that goes. Oh, well.

Keep in mind, I've posted "Delete/Don't-delete" ? tracks and "talked" into keeping it, since, yeah, they heard "something" in it. And then? - yeah, wound up being a favorite and even one that gets listen clicks 1-2 years later... so, the MoTown Focuse Group Paradigm, was a good idea? (a total group of not-invested strangers voting yes/no).

- No one has brought up, yet, HOW - TO, "receive" comment-feedback, properly, so as to be assured to get more. There are many whom may not know how and then do not since engage in classic fau pax (faux pas?) Smile *English, it's just so hard...

@ustaknow I didn't take your comment, or anyone else's for that matter, negatively in this thread. We do tend to get lost in the weeds on 50/90, so having a thread like this might not be as helpful as I imagined in my head. And it's good to know that ahead of time. I might choose not to start a thread like this (anyone else is welcome to, of course), or I might consider a way to limit the scope so that the thread doesn't become overwhelming. Or I might just say F it and go right ahead.

As to your comments about how we send and receive constructive criticism, I'd love to have a further discussion on that (maybe not on the demo recording forum). As a teacher and someone who is fascinated with the learning process, I'm always happy to discuss that topic. I don't think we will ever come to a consensus on it, but that's half the fun!

@katpiercemusic - well, it's been informative, and apparently of interest, so, it'll be interesting to see what happens. So, the consensus of being a great idea seems there. So, it seems you got your answer, indeed! Yeah!

-- "... how we send and receive ... [comments] ... " may be more of what it's about than the comments; since the issue seems to be, arguably, - the, not, understanding, of them. So, "sounds good like it", again, - means what? The usual comment feedback function as it is, - is that function; and, it is focused within that persons soundboard/song-list specifically; and then, the rest is already commented above.

Actually, if it is as you now explain at this point in the thread conversation, now, (for me anyway, imo), -- not a topic, for a demo recording forum, or as that may be, and how to give, receive comment, then, well, - I certainly have not understood a word here then. That is quite possible. I am quite liberal in qualifying, pre-framing what I say; sometimes more, sometimes less. As you can see, not knowing what I am talking about, I am quite expert on, as I have so well demonstrated above.

So, as folks that follow me know, - do as you like.

I do find it very interesting as I read through this, the, at least three distinct "takes" on it all and especially with the then more conclusive comments following.

So, if like in grading a "Test" ? so to speak, if the learner can't understand the "comment" (grade) and the Commentor can't explain it, then, we are indeed back to just "sounds good, like it" Smile That then leaves the "Relationship" paradigm, as commented, which is how it is.

However, "that", the relationship element, gets brought up within these multi-element, complex, not B&W - "Help-me" topics.

I'll leave this thread alone now with this then, - it's why I comment that, if you have 5 Fawmer's, that consistently leave, "more comprehensive" feedback-comment, (and you know HOW to keep them commenting like that), - that's as much as anyone can really expect, - the 2%, I say it as. Now, that 2% may be mixed in with 20 +- "sounds good like it" feel good comment. However, the thesis here, one of them was, is, - the comprehensive understanding of the communication of input beyond the primary reason anyone is here; and that is/may be to, write 50 songs in 90 days, -- all the rest is gravy, as it is said.

Cheers all! And happy 5090-2021!! Smile

As a more general observer on this topic, who doesn't have a strong opinion it is interesting to see how this thread jumped around and its easy to see how this suggestion could go off the rails. I understand where Kat is coming from its always good to get constructive views on demos, personally i prefer to get it from a chosen few colleagues who understand what i am aiming for rather than a whole community, when usually it is more just opinion. But i see why it would appeal to some. In reality the thread could work well and it would for Kat (i have talked to her and know how well she receives review). My concern is that people that are not as robust will ask - looking for praise- and will get offended by the reviews! I have seen this happen in so many places! Theres the quandary. In the spirit of meeting all needs i wouldn't be against a thread but would hope it would have very clear introduction stating exactly what to expect from it and don't post there if you are just seeking a pat on the back.

It's certainly not a topic one can, e.g., "speed read", and then if seeking it even?, be easily "Trigger" worded, O M G... a few threads got killed at the gate for no good reason for that and by one person on a single head space, "that" "day"...
- and so, likely not understood, me, not new to this..., so, again, the:
--- "protocols", framing and "how to" - keep folks commenting for "you". (addresses that stuff, the "Lesson Plan" in allot of this, how to not just get feedback, but keep it going? AND, understanding it? What good is it, if not understood or kept going, over time and change?)

Many do not realise, no fault of their own, how they "look" upon receipt of a comment. (I never comment a 2nd time, or more than a year later? Smile ) Why? (Ah, and so, this all goes, since applies to many folks, if they care to have it, so, or, - not. As you like!!! Smile )

But, then, why else does this keep coming up year after year then, and same folks possibly ? Interesting "qualitative" data? Smile (see below if care to).

This is what it is part of this "bulky" topic, as some see it. Me, it's not bulky or to complex, or anything that can't be fully engaged if one, "longitudinally" with a promise to theirself to remain in the thread to the end Smile
- You'd eventually "get it".

Moreover, we all, ALREADY know how to do it. Sadly the "love language" thread and other got deleted... as that goes, but some got that analogy. So, concerning the old saying of "rose colored glasses", can do no wrong, or say no wrong, happens to all of us at least 1x in our lives. YOU can say not wrong, and THEY can hear no wrong and so, folks whom want to, want, to, (want to?) be "friends" or productively COMMUNICATE or get married!! Smile even (the ultimate communication test we all face?), - that allowance part is productivly afforded. I've wrote about that each fawm5090 since joined.

- And so, YOU TOO, can get feedback comment for/from ANYONE, too! If, you want too and they want too, the two, too, to... Fool Wanna? Sure you do! But, will you? Ah, yes, and so, here we are, again, in an already, "was sort of over" thread the coolone resurrected! Good for him, brave Ozidland Gentleman that he is! Smile

But, many either really don't get it, can't get or never wanted to (trolls)... and why the "admin" of the thread needs to proactively engage and not let it go. The "offical" term for it, one can be, -- Group Formation. Anyone can vet that, look it up or even get a Masters Degree in Organizational Behaviour et alia -isms Fool they feel they need a credential for ? :P ... so, GF typically occurs in the first 5 Days of a group formation, -- like here now, for example.

Since no sincere, dark, trolls bombed this, some form of the thread may survive, - it depends... (to be sure, it depends... Smile )

However, like my "dark" thread in FAWM, got bombed and sort of survived, limped along, had that not been allowed by the proper thread admin, - me?, it would have been what it was, Blues, R&B, "dark-music" (even death metal, - of which, hey, I'm notta fan... but so what, -- INCLUSIVE, is the thing her for ALL, dark, light, pink with purple pokadots Smile )

So, what I've found over the years is, the folks that "understand" do, by now, like "here". Some are will to try to understand and some won't or just don't want to. So, yes, the thing is, the "admin'g" of that, the group formation, or as in any organization the leadership-managment that the group watches and follows. The first sign of no back-bone and Statur Quo. Otherwise, "new" and great stuff does occur. And THEN? Then the folks who didn't understand or want too... (turns out, they did but were afraid of sticking out?), then, they, after proven okay to engage, - they do, do, do Smile

- It's a very human process. Moreover, it all can be empirically engaged if even by bulk anecdotal data that become, via sheer bulk, - empirical, 1+1 = 2, so to speak.

"...
Types of Empirical Evidence:

Qualitative.
- Qualitative evidence is the type of data that describes non-measurable information. ...

Quantitative.
- Quantitative evidence refers to numerical data that can be further analyzed using mathematical and/or statistical methods.
..."

So, as MoTown engaged this, then, - Mr. Gordy knew that the Qualitative data he gathered by total strangers and not a "close group' like mom'n dad and friends Smile ... could have more relevance than, "mom'n dad'n friends" whom just loved you work.

Major point... if get it Smile

-- And so, 10 years later, sounds as good as it did 10 years ago Fool no better, no worse, no different Smile

I love the friends that loved me enough to risk "damage" to theirselves... and then stick with, - input to me. Most folks, if even see you walking to a high cliff edge, - don't say anything, won't risk the "damage" ... hmmm, ?, damage...

Oh, well, tso, derUgo!!! - again Smile

PS: as always, forgive the typos, grammar Smile I don't do more than write once, and check if forgot and wrote, not in english Smile so, read it as you like Smile hahhhh. If it's free advice, what's it worth anyway? Wink Fool likely, nothing :p