Folks who are persistently unsuccess-full ... ...

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... ... -- persistently do the same things. --> Don't do that anymore.
(Concerning music)

-- How YOU see, say, do things with others may be your biggest challenge. Change that. Look in the mirror, and change that reflection, and change how YOU are "engaged", -- success. Changing others, if ever possible is historically shown to be a formula for failure. I've never been able to change a Failure into a Success, --especially concerning music, the arts.

-- Define "success" (?)

-- Compare? (If do compare, -- Success, or a perceived Standard; what's the difference?)

The question, task, point in this potential Thread, (post induction to the above):

(*) For folks who may not be persistently unsuccessful, what were you doing when you realized that?
(Pertaining to music Wink )

-- Share that..., here, now...?

Anyone notice their own, or others Success, and what they were doing when that happened?


A prequalifier, or two, more, (post induction, to the deductive thesis above Wink Fool ) :
For those hopelessly buried in literal, comma policing formula, (within the arts?), -- you will never get it, skip this. You've likely had success, or could have, but, -- didn't realize it within all your made up rules (which are all made up, irony of ironies of original thought and defacto standard, as they become status quo Lol ) Success is like explaining sex, you can try, but, experiencing it, Success, is the best teacher. Folks who persist in the abstract, per made up formula will forever be watchers, as I've experienced them. Folks who seek Mentors, likely hear, see, feel things they don't like or agree with, ahhh, on the crest of inducing success via observed Mentorship ... stay strong, endure, there will be plenty you don't like or "get" in that new experience. Stick with the same, and remain the same, --unsuccess-full.

-- Thoughts, anyone? Anyone still here Smile ?

I am indifferent to my unsuccess-full-ness, at least in terms of getting cuts, making money or gaining fans, because I do this and music for fun. Part of the fun is experimenting with a lot of different things. If somebody likes one of my songs, great, I'm already busy writing another one the next day, or week, that most likely my be more krappe. I write a song or more a week all year round. Ironically, I feel I am successful in songwriting for those very reasons.

Hey Andy, I'd never ignore that, --me too. Why would I ignore that? Smile

I've found success finds you, right where you are. If you chase it, it runs.

So many folks don't seem to get that. It's also, not what they want to hear and wind up in interesting discussions. I love reading all the lastest and greatest that reappears year after year. Well, interesting to me Wink

Also, you are a likeable person; you won't need the latest online expert to teach you that Fool Lol

Yes, ironically ? , likeable people tend to do well. "Dale Carnegie" might be old stuff, but still applicable today. Email self-marketing won't change that Wink -- music or any vocation, industry.


[@nutation] - Regarding "success finds you":
When I started FAWMing in 2008, I thought "success" meant that I might be able to contribute to my family in the same way as a musician as I did as a school teacher. My wife became my booking manager/graphic designer/marketer, and I made the music (family-friendly folk). At the same time, we were both full-time teachers and parents to a (then) 6-year-old.
I realized I would have to work really hard as a musician to make anywhere near the income I did as a teacher, and the work of being a musician was taking the fun out of being a musician. I think I could have done it, but why?
I was trying too hard and coming at "success" from a place of feeling stagnant in the job I had. So instead my wife and I created the new jobs we wanted and now I'm approaching music from a joyous, no-need-for-recognition-or-money approach.
I think of myself as a successful musician now - I make the kind of music I want, occasionally people listen to it, I only play the gigs I want and in fact I've helped create the venues I play in (yoga studio, outdoor market, small festivals). I do have a new idea in mind, that I'm not quite ready to share because it is still in its infancy, that may allow me to perform more and maybe even gain a bit more of an online presence. I can tell you that it's related to yoga - it's not a secret by any means, just a general plan that may become more specific. My wife is in on this one, too.
And I'm also curious to see who is still around here - I want to keep listening and commenting, but only if I am pretty sure my comments are being seen.

@Chip Withrow is spot on! If you want to have any sort of results with your music these days you have to find some sort of unique niche or approach. And that is very hard to do! My advice is to do something like Chip did or teach music like some of our friends here. Or just play open mics/busk and enjoy that aspect. Come to terms with the fact that you are almost certainly never going to be discovered (whatever that means these days!)

I will soon be releasing my very first album and I am excited about that. But I know this is my dream and not something that others will necessarily care about or listen to. And I'm OK with that! I'll eat the cost of producing a physical CD so I can send a few to friends and family (who also will not listen!) And, I'll have a physical CD to put in my bucket! I'll put it up on CD Baby and some other places and check the stats for a few weeks and then stop checking. Sad

Does success find you? I guess it could happen but mostly, NO! You have to make things happen in music and in life!

Side note: Seems to be only a very few folks still around here Chip. I'll be checking in until FAWM because I somehow cannot help myself! Smile But I think most folks just walk away when the bell sounds (and it was pretty lean in September anyway.)

Hey [@chip-withrow] "same page" here Smile

Generally speaking...
I hesitate with "specifics" for many reasons in things I comment. Moreover, folks who "get" it, get it (stripped down) ... and etc. (Those that don't, won't --no matter what.) I can almost, (after 2 years or so around here at FAWM), "know" the direction of the open communications here. I don't think I am the only one. But, I do enjoying commenting it Smile , some do not. Also, leaving things "open" allows for greater input, thought in response. Some "get" that, and take advantage of it, --they should, "here".

So, more specifically, but very little, since may be irrelevant anyway ...
I've sat right next to folks, post production, who forked over 20K + for a few hours of a well known "producers" time and got the same advice, they received for free from peers. The response was, "it only counts if paid for".
-- Uh, no... but, hey, it wasn't my $20K, hours driving in a van with 6 guys and a week in a "motel" in nash-ville.

But, as this person also said, "if not the center of attention, will do something, even stupid to be the focus"... yes, indeed. That's the "head-on" music approach that makes music business folks stay in the business.

The other very hard part, for some, is, -- you can loose a "chance" based on one opinion, that was even asked for. There have been a number of "interesting" papers/articles on being a "studio-musician". You do have to have "everyone" love you to keep you on that project, --no opinions ("honey, do you think I'm pretty/fat/smart"?... famous last answered questions?)

If I think about, e.g. "Tom Petty", part of why I buy his music is the ASSOCIATION I have with it. In '75, I had allot of "feelings" and certain music moved them, and there you go (derUgo) ... Smile Can you imagine the pressure to make sure EVERYONE "likes" you?

Here's a last non-specific and true story if even w/o details...
A major Band was forming in circa '75 and a friends Father was in the "band", studio musician and pre-corp-rock (we'll put a band together and make money era). He was a "good" guitar player, but he was "hard" to get along with and had MANY OPINIONS ... decades later, and $M's never realized, well, he got to have his opinions but not the band.
-- That IS allot of pressure, even for "normal" folks Smile

It's also, as I've seen it, the greatest failure point for "head-on" music folks who follow --> "every known formula, what you should do, not do, expert advice", thing-y.

When they relax, be their true self, love folks who love them back, -- people start to ask for the other. Well, how I've experienced it. Did "Tom Petty" have a hard time selling tracks, even today? I don't think so. He also likely didn't get on stage and offer "opinions" about "things" and kill 90% of his niche-market who just want to remember being 12, 14, 16... etc. years old. That kind of "memory" product market, we are all in... me with my wife, friends and etc. To do it for the "world", today... well, seems impossible and even foolish. (I wouldn't want cameras suddenly outside my door... due to a new hit single... -- what most folks don't know is, most FIRST ALBUMS COST all artist out of pocket. Nearly everyone looses money as a lost leader.)

-- Well, I suspect, YOU ALREADY KNOW/KNEW all that! (as you commented) ... but, as I do, I do like commenting it Smile (owwww I ran on so long, apologies! --no response necessary Smile )

Fame is like a hug, you pay $1000 bucks for (?) ... I'd rather sell original music to back indie films and make no money with them Smile Hahhh Lol At least I'd get to keep my friends!

@Chip Withrow That's really good that you have found a way to work in music that suits you and your family. Now I'm retired, I'm working on something similar but it will take some time.

I love this time, end of 5090/FAWM... some of the best comes out. As commented, -- it's easier to have a look at a cool car when it's not rolling away from yah!

-- Free, think, feel, comment, enjoy ... life is good

Hey guys...I agree with a lot of what is said here. My husband and I make our livelihoods, pay our mortgage and raise 4 children entirely with our earnings from music. I have 3 different lanyards depending on if I'm running a kids' after school singing club or going in to a high school to teach 1 on 1 or coaching privately from home. As a musician you have to be creative about your income and wear many hats these days - be prepared to take jobs that you wouldn't have thought were in your wheelhouse. I teach 4 different instruments, run choirs or coach/direct musical theatre groups and Dan is a music producer/sound engineer and music journalist for big name production software and hardware (he started out as a blogger and worked his way up) - I never had any formal training but took all my exams/grades later in life). In the evenings we're out playing gigs with our original material (you can earn royalties this way if you have your tracks on PRS for example).
The networking with other musos never stops. You have to seek out opportunities where they present and take the 'see a need fill a need' approach. We do online session musician stuff as well and sync is the next thing we're looking at. Neither of us is going to be known outside of London or Kent but we work hard to make a difference to the community we're in. I'm just proud to say that I work in the music industry and that music pays our bills!

Depends what you mean by 'known'--I know you! I have observed elsewhere that music is 100% hobby for me. That takes the pressure off and lets me make whatever I feel like making. Today a synthpop track, tomorrow grunge, next week country, no pressure to conform or whatever.

@Jibbidy34 - Two things you wrote really struck me:
1. Regarding networking - last night, I was out with my wife (20th wedding anniversary!) and we ran into a massage therapist friend who is involved in so many networking groups that he's out several nights a week with one or the other group. He loves that stuff! My wife and I run a business but we only network socially and in person to the extent we have to - that's just not us. Plus we don't like to be out on the town any later than about 7 pm these days! To me, being social is exhausting - although I bet people wouldn't know it, because I can put on a pretty good act.
2. I love how you try to make a difference in your community - that's important to us and to our business model too! In fact, we look at what we do as building a yoga community - yes, we have to pay the bills and ourselves, but our long-time goal is to create a yoga center, perhaps even along the lines of an ashram.
And our local community causes are very important to us - although it's true, as I stated above, that we find networking exhausting, we will throw ourselves fully into creating a yoga event for a worthwhile cause.

Hey @Jibbidy34

Yes as @metalfoot said, "I" now know you here -- Smile . And it seems the common thread is "networking". But, what is that? Well, as I have "supposed", it is not what the online experts say it is. Every human interaction, a tall order, affects the next step. [ As all in this thread seem to fully realise Smile ] So the success element seems to be "authentic good interaction always" (?). Next, patience and fate/faith... hahhh... we all have an abundance of that! Lol ...

Now, rhetorically, generally speaking --yet again!:
And, it is not a shiny "look at me" self-marketing thingy, not attached to a relationship of some kind. "That" would not have gotten all these words written here, --just now Smile . ... something to consider and it seems we have. Authentic, good, human interaction with anyone else who, --will. Take folks up on all of it. Niche marketing is a bit of a fallacy in that regard.
--This is it. This is our music life, --now. Believe me, if I get pulled into some significant music project, some of you will be the first to know.

Then what happens? As all the old stories go..., we had to be in Florida, London, Nashville and I needed folks who "get me" so we gave them a call. Hmmm... funny how that works. The hard-drive on my PC, yours is as good as any in LA.

I remember my first FAWM, there was a singer-songwriter I really liked. Very talented in many ways I enjoyed personally. And, seemed to authentically "like" my work then. I did find them on FB and saw they had a CD. I sent a message, several ways, --"how to buy one". No response. In attempting to find out, other came up and saw a number of efforts at "contests" and etc.

The focus in response seemed to only be with close friends and family, no one else. OK, that's cool Smile too. However, the overt effort remained, was --"I'm at this venue, come and support me". Well, to far for me being another State, and, I then became confused about the music itself. That *association sticks till today.
-- I have to wonder, to how many folks that occurred and the affect. Yet folks comment, I'm not getting ahead in this. (Remember, this is just a hypothetical example, but real interaction of supposition... Smile )

-- Well, we have to drive the road we're on, well, to make it to the highway.

So many examples exist... almost cliche is the Beatles, (how many know), 800+ hours in that bucket of blood in Hamburg. 5 12" copies were made then, with 5 that included the band to come because they "endured" Hamburg and said yes, showed up (sober Lol ), when asked over to some obscure no longer in existence studio.

I'd say that if one is fortunate enough to get exhausted networking to move their passion forward that they are fully baked, in a success cake.

Try a NY, NJ, PA "success" (a USA-ism for any folks not familiar... the American "nightmare" --dream Smile ) ... here's a roll-up summary, some person making $150K maybe more, commuting 3 hrs one-way, working 60 hrs a week and STILL has to make SURE that EVERYONE loves them, to keep their jobs... anyone willing to swap out for that NE USA "success" story?

Here's a "last one" for now true-ism:
I was at the "Drum Collective", NYC a few years back engaging a well known Jazz Drummer, FtF. He lives in Manhattan. He said, if he ever took off one night, let alone a week, NOT CALLING *someone, -- he'd have no work the following week. And after a month, no work ... and would have to "ramp up" again. (It's like not showing up for work, you loose your income; you have to show up every day.) Many of my friends who do this had to pick, "Covers" or "Original" work. Crossing over in this region is "impossible". And to get back to one from another you start at Zero again. Yes, within a week, month NO ONE knows you, --period. They drive from Long Island to Pittsburg to S. Jersey to NYC and work a day-job to pay the bills. And, you will never hear or see them saying anything remotely negative to anyone, -- pressure.

I love citing seasick steve as an example -- gosh, who knows why he made it, but he did and in his 70's (age). Is he "global", no, but he can fill a venue with proper notice. Apparently his wife told him to take it off the back porch, and someone agreed... not sure but think it may have been jack white... not sure who facilitated that as of this comment.

-- Well, gotta go, please forgive typos and word count, these little stop overs are mental breaks for me and just can take the time to reread and edit, etc. and some may Wink Lol

This is, for me, the "success" -full, thread... how-to. I won't be surprised because you-all had the guts to comment authentically your stories, and etc., something good comes of it. Every "legend" in music ever told had that irony. So, at least we all have plenty of IRONY in our lives, loves Dirol Lol Hahhh... Smile