Ever wonder, authentically?

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Ever wonder, authentically when looking at a song, read it carefully, listen, maybe twice, see a huge thread of "comment/feedback", and wonder what's wrong with what your reading, hearing, thinking? "You", just don't get it.

-- Folks who know me, will "get" this consideration, -- authentic or nothing; if not, oh well.

Anyway, it's happened to me a couple of times this summer. And I just don't get what it is that others are engaging to comment-feedback and sometimes, "thickly". I'd love to be able to see it and maybe "get it", or learn something, and so I post this Smile

Now, "remember", ?, I do say, "good" is not "like" and I know a good work product if even I don't "Like" it, however that goes, -- genre, demo-quality, etc. caveats we all know well "here". I just don't comment when I am sure it's just something I am more comfortable, or better off, not commenting on (and some maybe "technically" proficient too, but purely, not for me to comment on Smile )

So, this is an end of 5090 for the "hangers on" advanced folks ? Wink who sit there and scratch their heads and just don't get bushel of "love it" comments, and you just don't see it but tried, maybe even "wanted to like it", so to speak.

(And, to be clear, "this" has nothing to do with the "encouragement" thesis, -- I get that, but short of that possibly doing "damage" too; "that" would not apply to long, gushing, numerous comment/feedback Wink you just do not get.)

-- Interesting thought? Maybe not... and that's OK. This thread could be like what I'm speaking to, and just don't get it Smile

Well, I'm not advanced in any sense, but I wonder about all sorts of stuff. The 5090 tends to be a positive/supportive place, so I tend to discount some of those "love it" comments. On the other hand, people like what they like. Personally, I'm not going to comment if I don't find something to like. Sometimes I listen to a masterfully produced song with tons of nice comments and maybe even an "artist's favorite" tag, and I think, "Damn, that is a hackneyed piece of shit." This is the time to mentally celebrate our beautiful community and move on in silence.

What really makes me wonder is when someone has written a brilliant lyric and folks leave perfunctory comments that make no mention of said brilliance. I wonder whether people even read or listened to the words--or whether they just dropped by to fulfill their reciprocity obligations as quickly as possible. I'm sure I've done that, too

Hey @fresh spotless youth -- yes, I wanted to get past the knee jerk stuff too, so thanks for that; we all know where we are, especially as folks here at the end or even after fawmover.

So, one "thing" I learned in answer to my own question was, -- I needed to get to know an author of a style I really didn't like. I didn't know it would have any effect.

However, as I say, "Like does not equal "Good" and so did recognise Good, very good actually if even really didn't like it.

So, what happened in this instance was, as I engaged the person, got to know them personally and learned more of/about that music they did (they did other), I then began to understand that music and now like it. I had a good good friend who loved this music genre I speak of, but, as a listener, -- I was not going to learn what I learned as I did from someone who authored/created it. I then started to appreciate more their other work which I did like, but didn't pay allot of attention to, since was mostly the other that they "created".

So, if I do some "supposition" and "think out loud" -- I know that I don't as well know the folks of the examples I speak of.

I know music has a universal element. However, I learned now, after many years there is this other singular element too, -- if makes sense.

But that brings me to your great statement,
-- "What really makes me wonder is when someone has written a brilliant lyric and folks leave perfunctory comments that make no mention of" [it].

Yeah, that makes me wonder quite a bit too. And makes me think of this story, I've told where, -- at a venue I was approached for the source of my set, and showed them my song book, -- "me" and they just walked away. "Wow" huh? I have never, to date gotten anyone to explain that to me. Well, actually Bill White did when I first mentioned it, said, more of that, -- was something he'd seen many times before. @billwhite51

Anyway, -- I'm glad to know others wonder... again, I wondered in terms of "what's wrong with me", -- skew, so to speak. I'm fine Smile but, I see more of it that I can understand in recent years.

I will inject "outside" of 5090, a very "generic" example,
---- Taylor Swift finally release her new album and it popped up on my iPhone under Amazon music in total (16 tracks or so? maybe 18, hard to see in the phone interface)... and immeidately, all sitting there said, "wow, that's a krapped song". Actually the only one of any merit, arguably is the featured track and like #14 ish in the Track List. The rest, and so many!... were elevator music generic, -- again, arguably.

He' she makes $20M/year and loved by Millions, -- but is it by habit or merit? To that I say, any band I ever looked at, if only 1-2 tracks were good on the album, -- didn't buy it, ever.

(And to be clear, in my vast music diversity, I * "like" Taylor Swift music, -- once she got out of the teen stuff and her voice change, and left the tight formulas behind... analysis if it can teach or affirm a few things and so analyze her stuff for that too, FYI.)

A few musings. I tend to say with some artists, i respect their abilities but its not my kind of music. Add to that my old ma used to say! If you look hard enough you will find some good in everything. Yes in a supportive group you have to take some comments a bit lightly! But isn't that like life? You hear lots of things and you apply your filters to it! The better your filters generally the more you are self contained and happier. You also find a few people who tell you the way it really is! As much as i respect the integrity of every comment here, i have a very small group of people whose opinions i weight higher! I like Bill am am a very big reviewer, my reasons are twofold, 1. I love the chase (always have) always looking for the next good song or artist - my daughter bought me a cup which says “i listen to bands that don't even exist yet” and yes I've often been ahead of the curve. 2. I have the time. I find it is as trendy to dislike some artists as it is trendy to like some! Along time ago on many topics i realised i am no longer representative of the masses (areas like music, Tv shows etc) and im ok with that. Personally on receiving comments i Take them at face value but certainly don't over worry about them! I am human though Smile and occasionally write something that doesnt get the attention id like but sometimes its the other way around! Im too old to over worry - I'm around for some fun.

Hey @coolparadiso — very relevant thesis point, “i realised i am no longer representative of the masses”.

But, what if you wanted to be, — to understand, if it were your job (how then to keep it).

Possibly like a Sommelier— you just gotta know and be correct, more or less.

Look at ? Dick Clark or anyone as producer to the grave? Maybe a bit hyperbolic Smile But analogously speaking.

I know krappe when is see it and don’t step in it; but what if it were not a “pile” — then what? Not to maybe like it as much as understanding what folks are hearing, how and why.

Now, the personal element I have always pushed as reason imo/ime; and it’s hard to not like someone singing their heart out, — Satchmo (spelling) how’d that voice make it to the radio — but I liked him when ~6yo ish and remember him on the plastic kitchen AM radio Smile

So, for example I again (weird huh) like Swift — but am sure the current album will go down as her worst, or “transition” album. We’ll see Smile hahhh.

And I like scratchy 78s (for a little while Wink anyway).

So, again, we all know where we are here, but this is about that element of why/why not and how do you “know”.

I was entirely uneffected by Led Zep (told b4) until one great party, where allot of their music was played; only then liked it, for the memory attached.

But it’s more than that, isn’t it?

Or, maybe I am there Wink — what I hear as krappe or good just is? Smile

I think the thing for me is emotional authenticity.

If it's obvious that the singer/band/whatever actually cares about the music and is putting a piece of their life in to the song, then it will probably appeal to me.
Which is why I like stuff from across the board; from Robert Wyatt's "Rock Bottom" album to the Beatles to Ella Fitzgerald to "scratchy old 78's" (I have quite a collection of string band music on 78rpm).
And that's my issue with most of newer popular music; it seems pretty antiseptic.
Dollars seem to matter more than creating quality music.

So that's my definition of "krappe" - music that even the artists themselves don't really seem to care about.

I think like all things subjective to taste there needs to be a twofold mechanism to evaluate music; there needs to be a way to access if it is good despite of the genre and what is not, even though you enjoy it; particularly, though, not only, if you are going to work with it, create it. My mom hates the Alien movies for finding the actual aliens disgusting, but I often say she can't say that it's bad BECAUSE of that. Being effectively repulsing in many ways it's one of the greatest victories in that, so we need to learn how to think about things that are often out of the curb for us. There are many people here whose music are not really my cup of tea, but I position myself into thinking about the genre they are writing, what kind of thing they are talking about and expressing and comment on it like a critic would, considering its strengths, weaknesses and how good of a representative of the genre it is. Thus I've have found I can have an intellectual appreciation of so, so, so many things and learn many tricks. that being said, this also helps in expanding the cup of tea into maybe a bowl of soup, because no man survives on tea alone and I found that inspiration comes from the weirdest sources. Many of the most metal song ideas I've had came during a period of over listening to Lady Gaga and pop is not really my thing. So, yeah, let's learn to enjoy things out side our box, because it's the only way we can ever think outside the box.

Dear mr @ustaknow i am lucky because i am pretty sure i know what the masses mostly want - hence how i know I'm not representative of them! Someone the other day said to me they want circuses and bread (i suspect its a quote) and overall a lottery win and entertaining to death. Some truth in there!

Yeah, I am sure I'll never have a pop hit either, very sure Smile hahhh (your're a funny guy cool-one). I think if I, you or anyone really cared about "that", they would not be a songwriter, -- for real, as "Songwriter", -- as we all here are (indeed). It's the one thing anyone can authentically be, by self declaration, if "do", -- an "Artist" (pick a subset label).

One thing, of very few elements that preceeds a very good song/lyric is if it was deeply personally anchored, (as Fuzzy says, too), e.g., an authentic expression of remorse, longing, mourning, joy, observation. I see 50 songs, and in "a list", one or two have that element and they stand out, easily. Yet, as said above, -- not really seen or reacted too. (So, are they good, or just easy to react to and so folks do? That's part of it... definitely. (Good revelation, -- generic and easy to be pleasant and show it.) )

So for self example, my "To the Moon Alice" song. Now don't misunderstand, yeah, it's a funny song (easy), and, for me, gotta "allot" of attention (well for me that's allot Smile ), more than others. But, it's a krappe song Smile hahhh! Part of it, I guess, -- is that it is/was a very "easy" song to react to in it's -- context as well. So, I see that as part of all of "this" too.

Well, I realise that this, "how do you know if it's really krappe, though many others hawk it up and you just don't get it", --- it's a thesis that takes "all" in this, in the most authentic, positive light; all the good elements stated here align, and then you wonder, -- "what am I missing" (?).

-- So I guess, in context, there is some element in that instance one may not be aware of, BUT, *caring if one missed *something, to find out more (?), maybe "that" is what's important here, in this, in this thread.

And so let me say then, that there are five "here" who, self evident, -- do. So in sudo-stats here, that's like 2% of the engaged base here (?). I am sure one could double that at least to 4%.

It's interesting, to me anyway, to constantly see certain numbers in this industry, 2% this, 98% that Wink which makes "this place" a pretty good sampling, as far as those things may go, -- anecdotally speaking.

It's good to take a moment, now and then, and try to bluntly assure oneself of what they are seeing so as not to crowd-think with the "emperor's got not clothes" thinking, -- not only naked but "ugly" too Smile hahhh!

But the point of 50/90 is quantity over quality. I mean, that sounds harsh, but that IS the point. When Jonathan Coulton made a name for himself he was writing and producing one song a week and that was considered pretty radical, but it did give him enough time to polish a song and produce it. We don't have that, and most of us are not on the cusp of quitting our day jobs and going pro, like Coulton was at the time.

I don't have any expectations that the comments are an accurate representation of the quality of my work. No one here should look at the comments and think "All of my songs get really positive response, therefore I must be an awesome songwriter." There are some folks here who are amazing, and I sometimes wonder why they don't have a contract yet, but most of us are somewhere between novice and semi pro.

I know that you like to use the comments as sort of a teaching tool, and I think that's really cool. Please, everyone, feel free to be honest with me and give me your actual opinion of my music. But I've been writing for a while and I'm a trained musician. I've been dealing with criticism, some pretty harsh, since I was 12. I have never gotten a comment here that I felt was dis-spiriting. Not everyone here has the tools to handle full criticism though. Some folks here are very new to songwriting. These might be some of their first songs. I can't give them the sort of criticism I would like for myself, and honestly, it's not always easy to tell who is new and who is not. I can't always tell who is trying out garage band loops for the first time ever and who has been doing this for a while and is just crapping one out to meet quota.

I really see the forums as the educational space, and I wish more people used them that way. I loved the question about meter and making lyrical lines work musically. I loved the discussion about using bridges. Those were fantastic. I loved doing my "TED Talk" on writing rounds. Ask questions if there's something you struggle with, and share knowledge, if there's something you feel strongly about.

There's just too much to chance with leaving a critical comment, especially if criticism is not specifically requested, and I won't do it. I don't want to unintentionally discourage someone.

Well, since the thread seems to have shifted to the "Forums", -- me, I'd be careful there too. Many many not remember or choose not to that, some of the biggest soul crushing krappe there ever went down here, occured, or occurs in the "Forums", hahhh. However, the renewing of FAWM, 5090 is what crushes that clannish-ism with new "Online Group Formation" reoccuring anew annually, -- why "FAWM" works. It makes it easy to forget. It's like leave an inheritance, you can leave allot but you can't leave your education and intelligence, no, that has to be relearned every generation. Man, if I could have inherited my ancestors accumulated wisdom, -- that's be great!

So, I learned well, -- careful in the Forums. Many openly avoid them since had been a source of issue, but, -- Not this year Wink Yet, as had happened to me, when the project was over, and "no one here" ?, still got a left field "shitty-ism" Wink

The thing about criticism and tools to handle is, it is ALWAYS about the person saying it. E.g. they don't like "the bridge", -- their having issues with bridges, don't like the politics, their having political issues, respond with hate and anger, having those issues. I don't know of anyone who sees it as a teaching tool, versus a learning tool for oneself. I know that there are many 2nd language English folks, and would not comment unless effected by the song, yet could start a very innocent comment such as, "your bad way or writing" ... O M G Wink -- classic.

I think, but not gonna go back to reread it all, the thesis was the listings of gushing commentary about a song.

It's what effect me, -- I thought, man, is that a "real" comment. But, then when I see, maybe the validator, -- Smile hey, that's not working for me but could, or no comments, so to speak, or some brief, "good one", then I know that occasional gushing ones may be real!? O M G!

I find the comments here, above this all very validating of what occurs here, and it's all good as I see it.

One thing I see this year is the IN SONG THREAD COMMENTS, of the song itself, using "Reply":
-- those if even not properly [ @ label ID ] tagged does not matter all, well, not for me. Why?

Well, because "in thread" it relates to THAT song itself and as someone who comes in later, reading that, then DO listen to the ENTIRE track and consider the converstation in the thread and then "learn" from it. So, I'd say, put in song replies and don't worry about the very cumbersom ID-Tag so "they" see it... -- often it's not a comment back, but an explanation or clarification for the next Reviewer, not the commentererer Smile

I know I thank folks for highliting an "issue" or point of discussion, -- that does not then require further response.

So, for the "new" folks who may be here, -- there's lot's to consider.

One thing for sure is, -- no one here that I've ever seen has ever provide a soul crushing song reveiw; however, in the Forums, will fight tooth and nail, and carry it across several platforms even "OUTSIDE" of this project, IMO, IME a real fau pax that now prompts FaceBook Groups to say, "what happens here in this closed group is meant to stay *here", not then commented elsewhere back and forth, and etc. And that goes for, regardless of a similarly title "group", one could "argue" Smile

The meat and potatoes of these projects are the feedback comments, or the tracks should otherwise not have a comment thread attached to each track. The value in it, is self learning, and not being Policed or otherwise then certain cliques, engaging only certain other members only since think identically, only.

One thing the forums can be good for is, stating what may not be otherwise stated, like, -- the Value of gushing comments that take on a Pattern one could assign many labels too.

If I were the "king" walking around with no clothes, the one who spoke up, "dude, you look good, but, er, ah, you're ashes are hanging out, -- would get the greatest reward, -- indeed Wink

Well, I'll go back to the original post and the question posed by @ustaknow about finding a song with a lot of comments, listening for yourself, and just not getting it.
First of all, and obviously, there's just not a lot of correlation between number of comments and quality of a song. We know all the logistical reasons why some songs tend to really rack up the comments.
I have a kick-ass rocker of a song with just one comment, and one I plan on performing that I think has just two. The rockin' tune is a newer one, and there just aren't as many of us around as there were way back in July. But the other one was from early- or at least mid-50/90 - maybe it's the weird title. (But I go looking for weird titles when I'm looking for songs to listen to.)
And besides, any comments - gushingly positive or critical - wouldn't affect how I feel about the songs. I'm just referring to number of comments.
Then, early on in this thread there were a few mentions of not liking or not getting certain genres. As for me, I will listen to just about anything and everything. Although I used to listen to more of it, about the only prog rock and heavy metal I listen to these days is from FAWM or 50/90. I've never listened to much techno and electronica, but I dig it here.
Outside of 50/90 and FAWM, I tend to go more for the tried-and-true in my listening - that Rolling Stones playlist on Apple Music was great driving music this afternoon, and after I work out and I'm good and pumped I sure do like to listen to Bruce Springsteen's The River or The Rising albums.
At least twice this 50/90 I've searched and found interesting music on Apple based upon suggestions from folks here, and over the years that's happened a bunch of times. And YouTube and Apple make finding those esoteric (to me, at least) gems easier.
So, yeah, I'll listen to just about anything and leave a comment on just about anything I listen to. And I really don't have many "I just don't get it" moments, because I do get that the writer created a song, and that's pretty darned cool in and of itself.

Well I do get, again, what Chip and others comment and I see it as another indicator which I'll summarize in a minute.

However, the "thesis" was simpler, -- when one sees these many, and over the top gushing (to make a point here) comments about a song, then, how can I figure out what it is that they see that I don't.

So, it's me looking in a mirror to grow that thing to recognize what so many other see; well, if they really do? So, it looks like, if I can do some supposition, -- it may not be, it's an anomaly, a logistical element. Well, that is what I considered, but, as I do, thought to learn more in earnest.

However, what I do see is great concern for the integrity of the core culture here to facilitate folks writing songs and to not have that effected. I was never concerned with that, well, other than in my thesis. Since, negative effect could occur, -- if a major feature here is the feedback, and it is, if it is not authentically engaged in any of the well concerned ways explained above.

Why would I think that? Well, not that I care, but have seen "outside" comments about the culture here which implied it could at times lack authenticity "for" songwriting. Well, that is subjective as with any art. Yet, all of Music Theory exists to "explain" music, break it down beat by beat and note put above note above note in all it's dotted fashions across time. So, one can say, -- it is an important thing, to consider, as I tried to do here, again. Smile

Happy Fall to all and all the folks who were concerned enough too engage! We do have deep, worthy, authentic conversations!

Chip makes a good point about numbers. They really aren't reflective of anything. Of course songs posted in July and August get more attention than songs posted in September. Also, many people who are involved here are also involved in other songwriting communities, so after September, this forum does clear out. They go off to do Rocktober and NaNoWriMo and FAWM. Also, people who have been here longer and people who comment more tend to get more comments too. It's partly a back scratching thing.

When you get right own to it, gushing or non gushing, criticism is a skill, just like writing music. It's a combination of skillsYou have to be able to express yourself clearly. You need to communicated complex thoughts briefly (I struggle with that). You have to know what you're talking about too. I once was told by someone that I considered a friend that my performance in a weekly showcase was bringing the whole thing down. She was not a trained musician, and certainly not a trained critic. It took me several days of fuming to realize that what she meant was that my voice was too soft and light. So I found some other people to sing harmony. I almost flipped her off and quit the show though. Her comment was cruel, not because she wanted to be cruel, but because she was frustrated and didn't know how to identify the problem or fix it. That's what happens when you criticize without the skill.

However, I'm more than willing to support trying to lift the culture. I tool musical criticism in college and loved the class (of course that was 20 years ago...damn!). Maybe at the start of next year we could have a thread for people who are interested in giving and receiving constructive criticism. Encourage people to use the tag "constructive criticism" to let others know they're seeking it out. Share tips for what to listen for and how to express actual criticism without being a dick. Most people probably won't be interested, but you don't change things all at once. You start with just a few people.

I'm not sure if this speaks to the original post or not, but art is entirely subjective; just cos you don't "get it" does not mean that there's anything wrong with you or your viewpoint.
As to all the gushingly positive comments, I gotta admit that I'm guilty of that. I tend to overuse words like "awesome" or "fantastic" or "excellent".
They are not inauthentic comments at all, though; I am often fascinated by other peoples' creative process and am really interested in the many different ways people express themselves musically. I tend to find any artistic statement as "awesome", whether the final product appeals to me or not.
People need to create more art.
I also try to be really supportive and positive in general in my life, and 50/90 and FAWM provide a perfect venue for this expression.
Other peoples' creative abilities and output make me happy, and I try to convey that happiness in my words here.
That is why I leave overwhelmingly positive comments.

I think most of us want to be positive and find good things to say about a song. We may not love, like or even tolerate a song. There are some songs I just cannot listen to - for whatever reason - and so I don't comment on those at all. I never "gush" unless I think the song truly warrants that kind of comment.

This is 5090/FAWM. We're not going for perfection. These are not honed songs that take weeks to perfect. That's how I judge the songs. Of course we can think "These lyrics need to be tweaked - a lot!" or "That melody is kind of boring" - I listen to these songs as sketches, or ideas - Some are fully formed songs - but many are not. For the most part, I don't expect them to be.

I don't offer true criticism/critique of a song, unless the writer wants me to to.

For me, this thread is very interesting and useful.

There's allot to constructively comment, draw out and add to, and/or clarify. I see too, that many may agree.

For me, - I'm not looking to "change" anything. I don't think that it could be changed and what the unintended consequences could be, so, not considering seeing that from "me", -- me, anyway.

I think I had my original question answered. I read all in authentic earnest.

Part, in large part of "feedback" is not in the giving of it, it is in the hearing of it. One does need to access what, where from, why and how, -- however, in general, "here" one can (imo/ime) assume if providing feedback, it's because it is intended as constructive. The only "evidence" I've seen of negativity is in how it may be taken, for whatever reason one can explore, -- but, that is the lesson. I've always said, anyone w/$5 for a CD is "qualified", and that is the ultimate feedback, well, sometimes (I don't buy much and even get my CD's from Germany for nearly nothing plus econo shipping as "nearly new" Smile hahhh! I'd rather pay ~$4 vs $16+ for some of what I want to have on hand in plastic).

In that light, the just above comment, I do carefully try to access the "feedback please" request; since, I do see that, but then as well see, -- uh, no it's not wanted. However, I do find out who wants it, how and why. So, that means, I WILL do a "sounds great, like it!" and leave it there. However, it's authentic since if one asks me, "hey, so, what's so good about it?" -- I have an answer... and it's not the smoke I just blew up your shirt. As I say, if I don't, to be brief, "like it", so to speak, -- I say nothing. As well for some I connect with, "another good one" is all their gonna get, or may want, -- after several hundred songs. But, they do want "that" since, after another 50, and then no comment, "hmmm ? is it all krappe?".

I do as well access the point of reference of the poster and how framed in the liner notes. Me, as some may know, -- mine are really all one-takes, first-pass and while recorded, (for a number of reasons)... and this year went "over the top" w/uber-dubs... but were all as well first-pass, one-takes... bundling of songs created in a period tend to be "the album" sound, -- the magic of it all (?).

I also understand how tech works, -- I know for sure, that BandCamp for whatever reason, all my tracks got "hot" and had digital distortion, -- so waited, not corrected since felt I'd be redoing it. Now, could it have been on my Unit here at home too? Sure... there's always new auto-updates happening. I've learned that, too, extreme compression and a whole lotta more Hi-Hz will make stuff pop on a Non-Headphone listen... and as well, a well mixed, Mix, then compressed will get schizophrenic in it's sound, so check but undo that quick, -- the dynamics DO get squashed and NOT where you placed them in the distance from Front to Back of Mix... I'll take two uber-dubs, one flat, one sharp in Vocal, and NOT L/R them but Center and vwah lah... audio magic, -- very sweet sound with certain Chordal notes.
-- So, I really try to NOT comment on the "Demo" for many, many reason, only some commented above. But, when it's "good" or has one anomaly, e.g. digital distortion I feel sure they ignored on their Red color watching... and it's such a NICE track... well, it's a bit OCD for me and say, "hey... watch that red?" (Or wear headphones in your review... ofter one can correct it if just hot and not Clipped.)

But, however, and insofar as "qualified" or trained to comment/feedback Smile well, -- here's two examples and one a repeat: -- I send a track to a "pro" and don't ask anything... and sure enough, everytime, listens on his Android Phone with Boss Ear Buds... Sometimes I do it just to poke w/a stick so I can tell'em to pull the filthy, muddy Buds out and give a proper listen. But this person is a soul-less musician as well and only plays for pay and could really care less what it "is" Smile So, so much for a "pro"... (fully admits feels "nothing" when playing, and it shows... Smile ) !

So, then, I go to an annual, usually, end of year party, gather where "pros" show up to jam. So, here's what's said... usually about 1-2 years later..., "yeah (great guitar player, prolific even), ... yeah, what an asshole... just won't stop...". Well, one would have to be there, but, when jamming, so to speak and riffing, it has to stop as some point in a number of ways... one important way it to allow the Musical Conversation to branch off, off of YOU Smile and start adding to the other persons "Story"... So, being a pro, and greatly proficient can really NOT matter and you can "Suck" regardless! Then, take a "kid" playing authentically with that "something" and can "steal" the moment, -- so what?

It does go back to how one takes it. I generally know with whom I am speaking and speaking too and adjust from there.

So, let me restate, -- I feel I got my original question answered, but remember when I asked. And, I'll repeat it..., looked in the mirror and wondered what I was "missing", -- no one else, me. And, then got a few "gushing" comments and wondered, -- really? Bottomline what that means, goes back to me and my Wifes "Cooking"! Wink hahhh... we committed to say the new experiment "Sucked" so that when it was "good" or Fantastic!... we knew we could serve it to someone else. Now, the result is...? "good", sucks... Wink and we tend to only eat amazing meals... and find it hard to eat out! -- yes, that's a music analogy, but works for me.

I know I only got better when I got, "this is bad, but this is really good" and I KNEW it was authentic... -- it helped a period of "Stage Freight" -- hard to believe me shy? Aye Wink hahhh! I found out, "Silence" or no feedback was very good, since, well, -- that crowd would have happily mocked and ridiculed Smile hahhh!!! A tough crowd. The ultimate feedback was being invited to session even after saying no thank you... -- they're just people, and allot of what they do sucks too; if it ain't fun, why do it, avoid "that". And, so my musical perspective, though digress a bit too from the original thesis here.

To be sure, -- folks want the best here for each other, and their selves. That may be challenging to summarize, but in so far as it can be, seems like it was in the above thread.