Listening, mixing, and hearing... --or, what I did the past coupladays...

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If so inclined... hear yah go Lol It took me a half a cup-o-coffee to write, it may take you two to read and four to fully "get" Smile Dirol

Recently I've been watching some interview type documentaries of famous artists from various periods. Some seem obscure, some not.

-- One thing, if not more, that I got from them was when listening to them *speak, and then *sing, (there), I could hear their voice there, --not mixed.

That rang a bell in my mind. It also immediately confirmed a few things. If you read this, and "get" it... you may apply it to your current demos, if not doing so already. Now, this is "manual" mixing, [of already well Recorded dry tracks], not automated bot mixing. It will make you sound like "you", not Engineer/Producer [xyz]. It's as much an art as "artist".

So, anyway:
I went to that mixed recording of theirs, and listened again and [now] could hear very differently how it got mixed. I just heard them speak/sing, --dry (never did previously to compare, not like that).
(On what and how you do this is part of the exercise, coming below, as was for me.)

So, what that did was make it easier for me to consider [reconsider] that, what I just heard, when --mixing my own voice. (Mixing, not Recording, already recorded)
(Which is not a great idea due to hearing it, your own voice, through bone, flesh and blood day by day, not as others hear it).

I noticed and appreciated tracks specifically from circa 70's+ that had very simply --Bass Guitar nailed/isolated hard Right, Treble Guitar hard Left and Vocal, Drum Kit dead Center. There's not allot of magic in that. One just needs to have faith Physics will do the rest for you.

So, more specifically, the Vocals had the mid's scooped quite a bit (allot, really). I could now here "that" since just heard them "sing" in the interview (back to the Red Flag above, abstract connection).

The lesson for me was what they did to get the Mixed Voice, the Record-recorded Voice. It was not hammered with Reverb (though there, on one dup'd track) and with the likely many duplicated Vocal Tracks that had a [I will presume, heard?] Treble Track with Wet Only, etc. I was watching their engineers speak and do and then pull back from saying anything more Smile hahhh...

I was now hearing some of what I know I do, have done, and simply figured out on my own to do.
[Also, what I think I hear in Sound Enhanced Mode on my Cell Phone, for example. Lol ]

However, also, if one listens to a "Reference" Track in Studio Monitor HP's... then on a, e.g. 800 Watt stereo with great speaker separation, etc.. from 20 feet back [sitting in front if a hard wall] they can really appreciate the simplicity of what the engineer did and how simply physics may do the rest. To say it matters on what you listen... is an understatement. I think what I appreciated this week was the "listening" part versus the "enjoyment" part and then applying that to my own mixes. I never want to stop enjoying, but it does pay to listen well too [and not in the car, boom box, etc.]. Hearing these guys like "that" in an interview, and "dry"... did it. So simple, but made this abstract connection that affirmed quite a bit.

-- No one is going to tell you, if even you ask!, hey dup your vocal track [n] x's and do [...] But they will attempt to sell you a plug'in that attempts to do that. The "Temp" space needed for much of this is high for a reason. I guess one could monitor those files, if one can. Many online curriculums may tell you have to set up hardware, and use software and what a plug in does (show you a SINE Wave Scope even)... but they won't tell you with a very simple few tracks in the most basic of setups, do -- [...]. No, that you'll need to go to a Nash-ville Boot Camp and pay... So unnecessary.

So the deductive, point post all that induction above Lol :
It was a wonderful affirming moment. The content available today is amazing. It made me feel less concerned about what I hear I do with my own voice since just heard it from "them".

Also, too, when I see initial expression on faces listening to new tracks... I feel better that I've done something good with the track that they hear as well. To them it sounds like magic, but, it wasn't.

-- "Taotronics" puts out a Tx, RX Bluetooth unit that allowed me to preview my tracks on "anything" from "anything" ... my best gear buy of this year and so cheap to do.

What were some of your favorite documentaries?

Oh, hey veg... my wife's the caretaker of the "TV" and has some Satellite pack... I'm likely the 1 of 10 who dug through the Content-wars content they all are having, Amazon, Netflix, etc. so they can all say they have 10K things to watch. One was even mislabled as an interview... (didn't notice the length), yeah, --then went on some hour after, of one after the other, old, circa 1970's band concert highlight after another... I've long forgotten... I guess (I'd be like 10-12 y.o. -ish at the time) "that" music was so new "then" coming out of 1950/60... everything got "filmed". Lots a weird stuff if you have time and a satellite subscription and has a bunch of content Vendors... Amazon Specifically has a pretty deep archive of stuff no one watches Smile Then once you choose it, it keeps coming up with new "krappe"... old, old edited together BBC TV Spots and who knows what (S. America... etc., too). I even found an "anti-america" pro communist, TV, "Detective" series redone in English (for Americans to watch), ... think it was from Romania -ish country Lol ... it really was worth watching a few episodes to see the depiction of "Americans" esp. in .gov positions... hysterical -- all dressed like Rodney King going for golf (think that was the comedian... --"can't get no respect" fellow).

So much stuff today is, I dunno... can I say "sanitised" ? -- it's like non-content-content.

I know one was, I remember specifically was a somewhat Spaghetti pasted production of "The Who" members. (I mentioned to someone else here last week... Lol )

Anyway, --hey, if that rang your bell, great! I just love this stuff. I never get tired or burned out from music... just get more of a Battery Charge, and actually have to back away to save you poor folks (?) Lol Hahhh. And "here", well, I'm not deformatting anyone's "Group" (the place is closed and locked anyway)... it's all ala cart, take it, pass on it, poke with your fork and put it back ... --it all goes to the trash in another few months anyway Wink


Also, I guess I'll just keep it in one post... --go get another cup-o-coffee, I'll wait... Smile :

Good luck on your "Album"... I see you posting elsewhere. If you get stuck, why not post issues here and see who swings at it? I figure there's like 20 people lurking on anyone day--we "are not alone" (X-Files) Smile ...

Like today, I actually was not going to click in and here's you asking a direct question... --don't ever think I won't answer... I've always got something to say, if I SEE it.

I had lots of ideas for stuff here Post 5090... but there are a few who aggressively kick back what's not normally done, and no one talks over them Smile hahhh... (I do) ...

--One thing I think would'a help many here, imnho Lol ... is a Track-file Mix Exchange.
Yup, folks swap like one song of tracks, 5090, FAWM, where-ever, -- and get someone else to mix it...
-- I used to have students Paint on plain Brown Paper Grocery/Garbage bags, Gesso'd white... ALWAYS their BEST paintings of that semester... not worried about krapping up a $30 Canvas of new pristine white space. You'll Mix anothers Tracks differently, if not better than them, potentially since are not worried about being "them". Well, maybe not.
-- Interesting huh? ... again, maybe not! Lol (Same thing for Tracks as "Painting" on "krappe" --it freeing... but, in the other Forum here, the past couple of days, a couple of folks made allot of sense, --folks just want to do *their stuff, not "discuss", engage in artistic exchange... I really did forget that until read the very good, wise and honest words of Andy, Bill ... ... I need that every now and then, --people do suck, but you still gotta by YOU!! Smile I do, am... --being.

So derUgo, not exactly what you asked for, but because I really think folks should go have a look and see what's what and make that connection. What some forget here is, the "struggle is the learning process". Never take the easy way, so to speak, I say.

OK, c u @ the .net.

Rodney Dangerfield was the comedian. Rodney King was a taxi driver beaten by LAPD.
In the early 70s, there was some hippy influence on men's businesswear. I remember seeing more plaids and stripes on suits. That didn't last. Disco went to solid color plus bright, unbuttoned shirt, Reagan 80s was dark suit, padded shoulders, and power ties.
I'm motivated to paint on a bag, now. My musical "bag" is the iPad. Much less stress than a more formal recording environment.

Track exchange? I have some short unfinished ideas - 8 bars of music without vocals.

Need to get off forums, and into GarageBand

Hey veg, yes, well my thinking was, (as a nieve idealist... Smile ) ... -- more experienced folks would take less experienced (at the moment) folks track or tracks (what, like two?) ... and do a mix, their rendition of it, --just for fun and speak on what they did to get it. Actually, I was thinking, even the "experienced" folks may want others to give a dry vocal-guitar track, a run and see what they could, would do.

An original track with 50% Reverb, --can't be worked with Lol ... it has to be dry demos... even cell phone one takes.

My spidy-teaching-senses was folks were here to learn and may that way.

I realise some of my ideas are unheard of and throw folks -- so glad you asked further Smile !!!

It may be an unusable idea now... but, come dead of winter, middle of backwater idaho.... maybe not. Smile

I'm glad the "wtf" folks are skipping over these out of the box discussions. As I've commented, once the thread gets some lengh... there's no stopping a good back and forth commuication... --thanks! No one fleshes out an idea, a good one, in 5mins.

I took one of those 8 bars of unfinished nastiness, tightened it a LOT, got some melody lines that I like some times. Not other times. Sigh.
Now I get to smash lyrics to fit in. This is not my usual method. Usually it's hook/ title, then lyrics, then melody, then harmony.

Hey veg, -- I'll be here rooting for yah!

And, likely too, the 15-20 others here Smile

I think "here", now... it anyone's best chance to get some very focused attention. Take advantage of it, I say Wink I will.

... i'm still working on all my krappe..., --I reached my goals. The secondary ones for next year, adding overdubs to six select tracks, well, --you're seeing that now.

I did my re-recordings and mix and I feel exceeded my "Reference" tracks. I think he was heavy on Bass-Hz and Reverb. So mine, and as others have agreed, are absent that, --they all said, "wow, he's heavy on Bass and Reverb. So, derUgo, and...

-- So, we'll see!

Happy Thanksgiving!

[ Hey, happy thanksgiving too! back at u! ]

Hey @billwhite51 -- can one reorder the Tracks on Bandcamp once loaded?

I just started experimenting, only got two tracks and not in correct order Smile , but know I'll be reordering, since the 2nd was a "bonus" track type thing... lmk asap Smile ... --anyone actually if u no 4 sure.

**Oh, never mind, -- I figured it out, there's a triple horizontal line next to each track to click and drag to order!

There's gonna be six tracks and I think the one bonus track from Side-B to come Smile

(Not finished only had time for that so far; wow only can upload WAV... takes a while, no mp3 or the other, so doing 16bit wav @ about 35Mb per... geese..., bandcamp is interesting, as a first time, not to bad...)

(@ the artist formerly known as Ustaknow) I tried to follow your link but it didn't work.

I'm at the point where I'm hating everything I wrote during 5090. Also, it's been almost 3 months since I recorded. I've been trying to sing with my old demos, with the radio. I can tell I lost a lot of breath support. I think my voice is becoming more agile, tho. I'm having fun with ukulele, but it's not giving me finished demos.

Time to stop stalling.

Hey Veg... o m g! 70 songs... wow... lots there. 2% of that is 2 songs, --ironic.

Anyway, find two you like and work on those. I am sure you can find 2% of what's there to like! Smile , easy Dirol

OMG... if only I had the time... -- I cued in on your "box of old clothes". -- Liked it... only skimmed it. I did this post, below in like, 5 mins... I hope knowing "that" inspires you!? You got lots a stuff to work with.

So, if you need a push? Here's what reading your words inspired as per the above, first lines as I played it in my head:

I have a box of old clothes..., stuck in a closet,
Under a pile of looks…, and hidden pockets
Clothes that don’t fit, like my old marriage
Faded short movies and watchless band carriage

Things of no use…, not in my life
Things of great value…, had built up my life
I’m searching for more…, under piles of new looks, and
Un-holey pockets and watchbands watchless

For me it could be a positive, forward looking song concerning time, and (in my crazy abstractions Lol ) ... watchbands w/o watches. Folks don't wear watches anymore (?) And I remember old watchband carriages like old Pipe (smoking pipes from dad) ... old Pipe Racks.

As far as "singing" goes... maybe ask on FAWM on FaceBook (?) ... there's a wholelotta singers there I think with formal training... and likely full of Tips. I'd ask there for *specific tips not "programs" ... theres likely one or two favorites for singer concerning breath support, then range, then dymamics (if what's meant by "agile"). ---Just an idea and just me thinking out loud. Sounded like a question in there Smile ? Maybe not, Lol --that's just me.

Feel free to take the above if like it... there your words anyway, (Keep in mind I do kinda think different from others, so what I got may make no sense to you, and that's OK... was only meant to inspire. Nothing motivates me more than someone liking and then "touching" my work Lol hahhhhhh!!, Aye?!? .) ... Gonna be busy next week!

I hope all had a great TG Day; we did, --lots of experimental cooking, like my music Smile

Thanks! Greatly appreciate the encouragement. Smile
I know it's not a rational response. It's like my wife looking in the closet and saying "I have nothing to wear!"
Thanks for the vocal tip idea. I'll ask.
I'm stalling. I could have recorded today. Instead I watched "How to play gospel organ/ piano" videos, and played with the dog.

Was able to record today. Overall very happy with the results. Going back over vocals tomorrow to get timing better. Then move on to something else.

Hey @iveg ... -- great!

So, you are singing, as overdub to music, or you play and sing at the same time?

Also, just generally commenting... kinda laughing a bit... I just couldn't stand it, and wanted this Gretsch Guitar... well, actually, thank God, it never fails, that online vendor --sent a previously sent unit, looked * "handled" and other (at that price, or any price, not good shipping QA, MF). So, back it goes. It is such a beauty and LOVE the trinitron pups... omg!... (never had'em... well, way back on my MIG Sears Electric, decades ago Lol )

Actually, I read (on certain units), ... and experienced that the Controls, POTS may not be wired "correctly", V, T, V, T for neck and bridge... yup, --not. It has two vol for pup1, 2, one Tone and a Master vol... which IS a wiring for another model so the harnesses are mixed, ---poor QA. Why does it matter? Eh, you can't use a Linear Tone POT for Vol... --well. You can hear the LINEAR Tone POT drop the Vol all at once not like the Non-linear POTS is supposed to graduate-ly back off.

HOWEVER, that's not why I'm sending it back... -- has a great sound. Would have to black marker tick the settings though (OMG!) ... but, nice range of bands-Hz coming through "differently", nicely. Usually an engineer sets "Nominal" at 90-ish% on any POT if not pegged wide open, --how the kids play'em Lol Took me nearly an hour to figure out "what" was going on with it.

-- And, it does make me nervous having a hollowbody at that price point... if you're performing in a consistent venu or "recording"... I can see it. Otherwise... eh... by the time the Signal gets stepped on so many times... matters mildly if at all. I guess I'll always prefer to grab my $300 guitars setup to be "perfect" in how they play. (Well, I do have some nice Studio model gibsons... but only because I hate shinny krappe all over my gutar and really dislike binding on a neck ... I need real-estate, not pretty lines I can't see Lol look at...)

-- Oh well, the cold weather and "holidays" are here again... ho-hum...

I usually write lyrics, figure out melody, then record instruments, and finally record vocals and background vocals. This song I recorded vocals back in September, then fixed some instrument parts and recorded other vocal parts yesterday. My timing was sloppy - started and ended phrases at different points.

Sorry the Gretsch didn't work out. Are you going to get something different?
--- --- ---
Re-did 90% of the vocals. They're closer, but I'm still not nailing the last phrase of the chorus. 7 tracks. [tripled lead, harmonies, octave harmonies] I'll rest it and try again tomorrow, I guess. Also changed a few notes in the guitar solo to lock into the chord changes better.

Your method... yes, that's challenging. I don't think I could do it.

I, as you know use the Guitar as a base with vocal, and build around it. I've tried to do it separately so could produce a better Track... but, so... I don't. I guess now I could better visualize my rhythm hand which is tied to the mouth and time the changes, but it plays different every time played.

Also, I've learned to dup that vocal/guitar track, -- then process the track using up to 4, 5 even 6 tracks... but've got it to 4 if I've got a "great" recorded dry base track. It's not an overdub, actual dup of the track and then rip out narrow bands of processed Hz only on "that" track. When all played together and "Leveled"... you hear what you hear on that bandcamp url. Also, the Demos for fawm5090, -- since nothing changes I can just dup it twice and with 3 tracks mixed, do the "demo" uploads.

However, the Cell Phone... does an amazing job with "enhanced" mode on the Voice Recorder Smile gud'nuff.


The Gretsch.... well, funny you should ask. Prior to reboxing it today, I side by side A/B'd it into a couple of amps, bottoms.

I gotta say Lol --not really worth the extra coin for the slightly elevated additional Mids and easier "pinch harmonics". I comp'd it to the Epiphone Studio DOT... ("335" -like model of the Gibson). The stock pickups in it, the DOT are expectedly "heavier" in tone, fuller, slightly scooped mids. I actually like the heavier fully tone. And, I've always meant to put in a hi-hz bypass. actually, I should just take the Tone POT out of the circuit. On the rare occassion I'd want less highs, any amp head can step on those Hz's there Smile hahhh... Actually, pending the bottom the highs dissapear anyway.

When I work I sit between an Acoustic B200H into 2 8"s of an Ashdown Bass Cab (great for all really)... and a 100W Fender Bassman and a 100W Sunn Lead to a 2 12" open back bottom. And, I have my little VOX Rhythm 5 Battery or AC amp -- greatest little amp I've ever had and used allot. Actually great to line out to the bigger stuff, --kinda weird, but works.

I used to run my little Casio Keys into the B200H to get that overdriven Deep Purple, "Marshall" head sound, --as what he did. He ran direct into the Marshall, and if remember correctly, --in studio, into a single 10 or 12" speaker bottom. That's the Deep Purple Keys sound. I love that sound! I love doing blues runs as filler on that. But, I'm not a keyboard player. However, try to get a "piano" player to run a pentatonic blues riff as a turn around, --huh, what, huh? Lol ... (So, that's all I can do on keys Smile )

For my Bass Guitar... fortunately NEVER liked effects of any kind (thank God... oh to much stuff to play with). I just love that heavy, crisp, sock shaking thump.

So, all that to say, --nah... A/B "Gas-X" did the trick! Hahhhh Lol The Gretsch will go back and that'll be it.

-- If you did read my other rabbit trail thread... I really did find guitars I forgot I had... I think I'm at a "reasonable" limit of being "Guitarded" ! Wink Hey, at least it's not Old Cars... where would I put'em.

Yeah. I saw the "guitarded" thread. I gave away/ sold most of my gear so I'm down to electric guitar, bass, and a bamboo flute. I have access to a bunch of other stuff if I want to use it.

Old cars. My uncle used to store them at relatives. He had 3 at my grandma's. I think he finally opened up a used car lot.

Lol Lol Lol

So I finally get another demo recorded. My brain tells me "the chorus would be a lot stronger if you changed this word." Then, "The verses would be way stronger if you swapped lines 3, 5 & 7 in both verses." So hurray for my left brain. I wish it had caught all this stuff BEFORE I recorded. Wink

Hey veg I hear yah... I write by recording with pen and paper... so never stop. I did that because I needed to hear it back even days later. It also made each recording very delete-able. That turned out to be a big help. Once settled --I found that, after 4 tries while all had a mistake, then, none were soooo much better. I knew I was done... then mixed. Keep the mistake keep the feel, no one else will know.

Oh, on that DR-1 for drum track... found recordings from 9 years ago...o m g... kinda interesting to hear the changes. And, now 9 years later does not sound as nearly as krappey as I heard it then. Lol

Oh... to hear accurately... and grow correctly. Well, that's what good songwriting friends are for Smile